Rowers & Paddlers Traveling Together?

[ABfish]

I am considering using my Lumberyard Skiff (14.5 x 4 ft. x approx 120 lbs.) for a 25-mile trip this spring on a slow moving coastal river. Other members of the group will be paddling canoes or kayaks. I have made a half dozen trips of this type in a canoe, both tandem and solo, but have almost no rowing experience.

Assuming I become a competent rower, I have the following rookie questions:

-Can a rowboat keep up with a group of paddlers on this sort of trip? I'm not sure that I could withstand 1-1/2 days of ribbing if I'm constantly falling behind the group.

-Can this boat be easily rowed with two persons rowing at the same time? The boat has two locations for oarlocks, but I've not tried it with two oarsmen. Having two paddlers in a canoe is a great advantage in a trip like this.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I have been on an open-water paddle where a rower blew by me with ease. He was rowing a well designed S&G rowing skiff designed by CLC. I was on the same paddling get-together several years later where another rower was trying to go the distance in a rather fat, flat bottomed skiff made out of steel. This boat was a slug. It was broad, very heavy and had a transom that dragged in the water. I told the rower his $10 yard sale find would never be any good under oars because it was designed to take a motor. I could tell because it carried it's transom so low.
The leverage offered by oars, particularly long oars, is a great advantage.
But your problem is the boat. It doesn't have much waterline length and, if there is not sufficient rocker, the hull shape may not be efficient. The best rowing skiffs have an waterline shape like a canoe. Pointed on both ends and fat in the middle. Anything that eddies the water coming off the stern of the boat (like a submerged trasom) will restrict your glide and make your 25 miles very long.
Put you boat in the water and check it out.

[dredbob]

There are two factors to consider here. One, is that the oars will allow you to develop more power more easily than a paddler. You have a longer lever arm and even a fixed seat stroke allows you to put more body into the pull more easily than is possible with a paddle. Second, against that, the 14 foot lumberyard skiff, while designed for rowing, with the transom well clear of the water, is relatively short on the waterline and being a relatively wide, flat bottomed skiff is not the most easily driven of rowing craft.

So, if your buddies are all super gung-ho bonzo paddlers in long canoes and kayaks (18 feet or so) who paddle hard all day long (you know, the hut hut hutters) , you MAY be pressed to keep up. But if they are normal folk who take it easy most of the time and have a mix of craft including some shorter boats, you'll probably be just fine.

And the best way to use two rowers in a shorter rowboat like yours is to row one at a time, switching off frequently to keep fresh.

Use your cargo capacity to its fullest, and keep a BIG cooler full of cold beer, and I doubt much whether the rest of the group will let you get too far away from them in either direction :)

Bob

[62816inBerlin]

Are going for a race or and outing?

Normally when walking, cycling or ...., the group adjusts to a pace which everyone can keep up with. The paddlers would have to adjust to you speed if you're slower.
However, I'd get some practice/training in before setting off on 25 miles, not just because of the technique, but to get you hands (blisters!!) and muscles adapted to several hours' rowing at a stretch. I find myself aching after a two-hour spell in my Mirror, which weighs virtually nothing - as I do not row that often.
BTW - do post a trip report after you return. I have been toying with an excursion of this kind for a year or two, but have not found the time or courage to set out - even on our sedate rivers and canals. Sailing is not permitted on the local canals and river stretches with commercial traffic - so I'd have to row.

Gernot

[Thorne]

One issue is that it can take awhile for them to figure out that you are facing backwards == and not stop dead or pull in front of you. You may want to rig up a rear-view mirror...

You'll want to row single and trade off, as doubles rowing is hard to coordinate and not all that effective in that short of a boat.

[Woxbox]

Use your cargo capacity to its fullest, and keep a BIG cooler full of cold beer, and I doubt much whether the rest of the group will let you get too far away from them in either direction :)Great advice from a political point of view, but actually that boat will keep up easily if light, but if you load her up she'll become a real slug.

The leverage advantage of oars is much overstated. It's very good for a sprint, but over the long haul, it's what your heart and lungs can do that sets the pace.

Oh, and about practice. Bilsters on the hands and a sore behind will slow you faster than anything else if you're not accustomed to rowing. Rowing chafes the butt in a way that paddling never will. Take along some sort of pad for the seat if you want to last all day.

[2MeterTroll]

from an excrew rower viewpoint put in a sliding seat, borrow a Cox, get some good sculls and outriggers, hammer the paddlers into the ground. :)

but even a mediocre rower in a mediocre boat if he keeps a easy pace and pays attention to his blade exit from the water will out pace most paddlers.

[Ben Fuller]

The real question will be what pace the paddlers run. You will be limited more by your boat length. If you find a paddler or two that have a pace like yours getting one of them to draft you, making their life easier at no expense to you will be very cool. They serve as your eyes forward. I used to run with Alden ocean shells like this with a fast sea kayak. We got a win win situation. The Alden was a touch faster if we had been side by side, but I rode his stern wave, we had pleasant conversations and he did not have to look over his shoulder. This can be done for long distances unless there is wind and waves.

For your skiff not only would I not try rowing it as a double unless you have seating designed for same I would not carry a passenger even in trade off mode. You will feel the weight.

[ABfish]

Great feedback and much to ponder.

Last year, I was forced to paddle solo in my 12 ft. CLC Sassafras canoe after my partner (and owner of a bigger canoe) mutinied at the last minute. Paddling solo is no fun on a trip like this, unless you have a long, fast boat. If you stop paddling for whatever reason, you immediately fall behind. The tandem boats, on the other hand, keep moving under solo power while the other paddler scrounges through the cooler.

The speed differential between my 12 ft. boat and the lead boat, a high quality 17 ft. canoe, was painfully obvious.

So far, I've only rowed the Skiff on a small lake. My plan is to launch in a nearby river next week and see if I'm up to an all day rowing trip. Two days of paddling a canoe generally makes me tired, but not really sore in any particular spot.

Worst case scenario: the rowing Skiff is not suitable for this trip, I have to join one of the other guys in a Dick's Sporting Goods roto-molded barge with cup holders for this year's trip, and I am forced to build a 17 ft. stripper canoe for next year's voyage.

I've almost got my wife convinced that non-powered boats should not be included in the sum total of boats in our yard.

Me, "If it can fit in the barn, and you can't see it from the house, and you don't have to register it, and the tax assessor doesn't know about it, then how can you count that against me?"

She, "It's still a boat".

[Spokaloo]

I've almost got my wife convinced that non-powered boats should not be included in the sum total of boats in our yard.

Me, "If it can fit in the barn, and you can't see it from the house, and you don't have to register it, and the tax assessor doesn't know about it, then how can you count that against me?"

She, "It's still a boat".

I don't care who you are, thats hillarious!

Take it from a guy that has 3 sea kayaks, 2 beater wood pirogues, a 12' summerbreeze, a 21' oxford rowing shell, a 16' aluminum sled, and a 22' picnic boat, its all about making her happy.

Build a boat specifically for her. What she wants, what she will use, the color she picks, everything around her. It makes the next project less of a tug of war....

And she loves her Oxford...

E

[JimD]

Does it look something like this?

http://gettingstartedinboats.typepad.com/./photos/uncategorized/100_0151.jpg

http://gettingstartedinboats.typepad.com/./photos/uncategorized/jeffery_and_myself.jpg

You will have no worries about that transom dragging in the water. And not too much beam. You might keep up surprisingly well although as others say a longer waterline could really help.

[ABfish]

Jim-
Same boat. I enjoyed your post as I considered building my skiff.

[Tom Hunter]

There are two things to consider

1) What kind of shape you and the paddlers are in
2) How long and light are the canoes and kayaks

Number one is kind of obvious, so I won't discuss it.

Longer is faster, if you have a 14 foot boat and they have an 18 foot light wieght racing kayak you will never keep up. Conversly, I have an 18' racing dory and there is no way a 14' kayak can keep pace with me. Ben Fuller races a somewhat similar boat, read his post carefully too.

The oars do give you more leverage. I have found that matters in wind, but not for getting from place to place in freindly conditions.

You already have your boat, so I would work on the training side. I bet your boat cruises at 3.5 mph, plus the river current of maybe one mph? So you have five hours of rowing over a couple of days. I would row for at least an hour several days a week for a month or two before going. One tip, train without gloves to toughen your hands, then wear gloves for the long row. Less likely to get blisters that way.

[rnb1016]

have you considered sculling? many pulling boats of classic design have a notch in the top of the transom, or an oar lock, for sculling with a single oar. this can be very helpful in narrow or congested waterways. sculling can also be done standing up, which will give your back and behind a welcome break from rowing, as well as enabling you to see where you're going, not just where you've been. and with the help of a river current, could be enough to keep up.
the outing sounds like great fun. I would jump at the chance.

I hope you can go and I hope you all have a blast.

[Thorne]

Don't think that sculling would keep up with the paddlers, unless you were using a Yuloh (or however it is spelled) and maybe not even then.

[Kaa]

From what I remember, rowers can output more power than paddlers (that's a function of muscle groups involved) so given similar people in similar boats rowers should outpace paddlers. Well, on flat water in a straight line, that is :-) In real life, it depends. Kayaks, for example, tend to have noticeably less windage than rowboats with obvious consequences.

In your case, I suspect it will all depend on the level of physical conditioning of people involved. Do remember that rowing uses different muscles than paddling...

Kaa

[Yeadon]

A book worth reading ... Rowing to Lattitude (http://www.amazon.com/Rowing-Latitude-Journeys-Along-Arctics/dp/0865476551).

In one stretch of the book, they described rowing up Atlantic coat of Canada. They were in kayaks with sliding seats and rowing outriggers, and their daughter was rowing along in a dory.

Good read, regardless.