Smiths Teak and Oak Epoxy

[Jim Ledger]

Here's a link to Smiths Teak and Oak Epoxy...

http://www.star-distributing.com/smith/oakandteak.html

Can anyone give me any information or opinions on the product, or links to any previous discussions of the subject?


Thanks

[pcford]

The fact that it exists demonstrates that there is a problem gluing white oak...the material implies that the problem arises out of the acid content of the wood.

Yet one can still raise brothers who insist that there is no problem gluing white oak with epoxy.

[Jim Ledger]

Yet one can still raise brothers who insist that there is no problem gluing white oak with epoxy.

I was hoping not to walk down that well-trodden path.

The manufacturer claims that it's good for oily hardwoods. My interest is making a curved lamination out of Angelique. West Epoxy might do the job, but hunting around for gluing information turned up this brand.

[Chris Gerkin]

I have used it on teak boarding ladder that doubles as a companionway ladder but the ladder is not old enough to to tell much. I would say that many trips up and down the ladder have shown no stress.

[Bob Smalser]

.... My interest is making a curved lamination out of Angelique. West Epoxy might do the job....



The operative word is might. Plus there's another problem with curved lams of very stiff, very hard woods and that's the clamping pressure required to pull them home can easily starve an epoxy joint.

Why not be sure and use resorcinol? Then you can torque down those clamps as hard as necessary and simply throw an electric blanket over it for the night to insure it stays warm.

[Jim Ledger]

The operative word is might. Plus there's another problem with curved lams of very stiff, very hard woods and that's the clamping pressure required to pull them home can easily starve an epoxy joint.

Why not be sure and use resorcinol? Then you can torque down those clamps as hard as necessary and simply throw an electric blanket over it for the night to insure it stays warm.



Thanks, Bob, that's a solution I hadn't really considered.

If you don't mind, let me run the idea past you and ask your opinion.

The lamination would be the stem of the catboat, the stem and fore gripe combined. The whole thing would be scarfed and bolted to the front of the keel. I've been trying to locate a locust knee to do this, so far without success, owing to the size involved and the ninety degree angle. Problem is, time is running out, and if one does turn up, it will be green. The reason for doing in one piece what is often done in two is that the three separate pieces (keel, gripe and stem) usually have a shrinkage problem when made of large partially seasoned timber, unless the boat is built quickly. On the other hand, a single keel/gripe scarph has a good chance of staying tight.

There is, on hand, enough Angelique to make laminations. Ripping out ten foot lengths to any suitable thickness shouldn't be a problem. Thickness sanding would make a high quality glue surface and consistent thickness. Quarter inch thick laminates should be no problem to bend unless the grain runout is excessive. The laminates could be glued on in stages, four per day, for instance, avoiding too much stress all at once. Clamps are not a problem.

Would a thin lamination and multiple glue-ups improve the feasibility of epoxy?

Just kicking this around for now, but i'd like to hear what you have to say.

Thanks

[Bob Smalser]

Doing a control-F search for gluing problems with tropicals brings up plenty of them, but none using Angelique, for which there is plenty of commercial and marine experience:

http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/publications/fplrp125.pdf

But just the same, I don't like epoxy for big hardwood glueups for a number of reasons. None are as easily glued as woods like Douglas Fir and the heavy cedars. Generally the heavier the wood, the more seasonal movement and the wetter it is during construction and in service. And the harder the wood, the more difficult for the glue to penetrate and the easier it is to squeeze too much resin out. Few other trades attempt to laminate airdried White Oak and hard tropicals....I often wonder how many epoxy failures are really more the result or a combination of too much clamping pressure, too much moisture, or too much cupping after curing.

So even if you steambend them first to take a set (which is a good idea), pulling wide, quarter-inch lams home around a curved form will take more pressure than is ideal for epoxy. Add that epoxy requires wood in the 10% moisture content range and resorcinol tolerates moisture as high as 15%....plus its successful 70-year record of service with the Navy in laminating one-piece oak frames for vessels as long as 200', and the choice is clear to me.

[Jim Ledger]

Thanks for that, Bob.

So, in principle, you feel that such a lamination is feasible, using resourcinol, with care taken to control moisture content and provide adequate clamping pressure?

Regarding moisture content, the laminations would be ripped out of 6" thick stock, the same as the keel is made from. There would be a significant MC gradient between the outside of the timber and the center. The center being, almost certainly, too moist. I can see clamping the laminates in a stickered stack for a few months, after which they could be thickness sanded to remove any cupping and to provide a fresh glueing surface. If the lams were about 5/16" thick, that should be sufficient to air-dry.

[paladin]

Jim....what are final desired dimensions of the piece when finished?

[Jim Ledger]

Jim....what are final desired dimensions of the piece when finished?

Imagine an ell shaped piece, about four feet on one leg and five feet on the other. The sided thickness will be whatever the piece cleans up at, being made from six inch wide laminates, say five and a half inches. The molded dimension would be about a foot, before shaping, or about fifty laminations.

[paladin]

OUCH! My thoughts are that it's possible although I have never used angelique....I have done it with teak and it's still together.....on tight curves you would need to use thinner material to get a safe bend and many layers to reduce the tendency to springback in the thick pieces. We had a client that insisted that we use his teak for all parts of the boat.....I cut the pieces for the stem at 1/8th inch thick, after a week wiped them down liberally with acetone, let them dry for 12 hours in the Thai heat, then laminated them with Schindlers T-88 (now system three T-88)...that was thirty years ago...when Tom sold the boat about 5 years ago everything still passed muster.
Just a thought.

[Bob Smalser]

Ouch?

Circa 1942. White Oak 2" lams and resorcinol. I toured one of these minesweepers still in NATO service in the mid 1980's, and if it hadn't have been retired and broken up as obsolete it would still be in service.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2595357/359074266.jpg

[paladin]

In the 60's those fully operational minesweepers were being auctioned off, complete with "hardware" for about 5 grand each. We got 3 of them in the Philippines...tried to hire some guys to remove a lot of the gear on board in payment for taking it off...no go.....so we started taking things off......sold the scrap for three times what it would have cost us to pay the boys....came out smelling like roses. We gutted them, made fast "express cruisers out of them"
Offshore gambling ships....run into the are between vietnam and Philippines and let the folks gamble their money away, feed them, shack up with their girfriends and in two weeks start all over again....until Marcos decided we were making too much money and he wanted a cut.

[JimConlin]

The fact that it [Smiths Teak and Oak Epoxy] exists demonstrates that there is a problem gluing white oak...
It only demonstrates that someone thinks they can make a buck.

Rockport Marine (Rockport, ME) is rebuilding Bolero, and they're using West System G/Flex to laminate white oak deck beams.
I'd have a talk with the Gougeons.

[pcford]

It only demonstrates that someone thinks they can make a buck.

Rockport Marine (Rockport, ME) is rebuilding Bolero, and they're using West System G/Flex to laminate white oak deck beams.
I'd have a talk with the Gougeons.

Uh, would the US Navy be a less biased source in this regard? They specify only resorcinal to be used on white oak.

White oak's problems have been know for years. Anyone who cares to can do a test for themselves. Just sand and glue a couple blocks together...let it go off for a week, place a chisel at the glue line...it'll fly apart...busting at the glue line.

I do not know how never glues handle white oak but certainly the epoxies that have been around for a while are not to be trusted.

[Jim Ledger]

Nice minesweeper frame, that. Very encouraging.

After doing some research on resourcinol glue, I'm awestruck by the cost of the stuff. The cheapest I could find is $20/pint. and pints seem to be the only size available from DAP. What do industrial users buy, drums? Where are the gallon quantities needed for larger projects with the attendant pricing savings?

Further reading shows that over-clamping is also a problem with reourcinol, as well as with epoxy. However, it's difficult to under-clamp epoxy, but resourcinol needs a definite minimum pressure throughout.

Other than that, a well glued resourcinol lamination seems to be the best solution, considering the crucial position of the piece in the boat and all that follows.

[Bob Smalser]

$115.00 per gallon kit of resorcinol:

http://cpadhesives.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=13&thiscat=1&frompage=Online_Store&page_num=1&=SID

http://cpadhesives.com/images/cp0900-L.jpg

The Fisheries Supply price today for West epoxy is $91 for a gallon of resin and $17 for a half pint of hardener.....or $108.00 for a gallon kit. Smith's Teak and Oak Epoxy in kit form is $137.50 a gallon.

Sounds more like a wash to me.

[JimConlin]

Aircraft Spruce offers Cascophen resorcinol in pints, quarts and gallons ($67).

http://tinyurl.com/dz82m7

[Mrleft8]

Jim, have you talked to Ray Connor (Raycon on WBF) about a sawn Black Locust piece?

[Jim Ledger]

All right, Bob!

Thanks, that's the tie-breaker.

A further question. If I make laminates and let them dry, is it necessary to let them reach a dryness of 15% all the way through, or would it be sufficient to have a 15% MC on the surface only, prior to glue-up??

[Jim Ledger]

Jim, have you talked to Ray Connor (Raycon on WBF) about a sawn Black Locust piece?

Yes, and he's got a pattern and he's looking, but I'm running out of time and I have to have some sort of back-up plan. He'll be supplying a lot of Locust for the job, but nothing this unique.

[Jim Ledger]

[quote=JimConlin;2141892]Aircraft Spruce offers Cascophen resorcinol in pints, quarts and gallons ($67).

Thank you, Jim.

Why did none of these sources come up for me?:o

[Mrleft8]

http://www.wood-carver.com/store.html
5 Gallons $425.00

[Jim Ledger]

Thanks, Lefty.

I figure, roughly, that two gallons would be enough. If each laminate is 6"by 10', thats 5 sq. ft per lam. Times fifty laminates comes to 250 sq. ft. One of the spec sheets gives a spread rate of 50-60 lbs/1000sq.ft. which works out to 15 lbs/250 sq. ft., or a bit less than two gallons at 9lbs/gal.

So, I'm not in the five gallon bracket, especially considering the shelf life.

They say weighing is the best method of measurement. Would a kitchen food scale be an good method, or is there something better or cheaper?

[JimConlin]

[quote=JimConlin;2141892]Aircraft Spruce offers Cascophen resorcinol in pints, quarts and gallons ($67).

Thank you, Jim.

Why did none of these sources come up for me?:o

Google has an amazing array of searches in other contexts than just unscreened text on the web.
Google for resorcinol glue , then pick more, then shopping and you get a list of people who are selling resorcinol glue. You can sort by price or sometimes other things.

Damned if I know how it's done.

[Captain Blight]

Kitchen food scales are quite accurate, you might consider one with a glass table for easier cleanup. I don't know how much accuracy is actually needed, but you can buy a scale accurate to half a gram with a kilo capacity for around 30 bucks.

[Paul Maselli]

Jim, my suggestion is to use Gorilla Glue - I've just completed laminating over 50 white oak deck beams for my Alden Sloop the Elliot White. The lamination schedule is 9 coarse of 5/16" air dried and planed laminations of w/oak glued up with Gorilla Glue polyurethane adhesive. Prior to setting out to complete this task I researched adhesives for this same problem. We know that Epoxy does not like a glue starved joint that the clamping forces would induce and resourcinol requires very strict temperature control and high clamping forces as well. It is also a more costly adhesive than Gorilla glue.

This adhesive was actually created/formulated for use in the Scandanavian marine market place. It is 100% impervious to water after curing and only requires a tight glue line to insure a strong bond. It actually cures from pulling moisture from the surrounding atmosphere so a slightly higher moisture content in the wood is desirable. Because the adesive expands during cure the "foaming action will not create a strong joint if the glue line has gaps. In making all of these deck beams I had no issues with this. Moderate clamping forces were all that was needed to sucure the beams. The glue has an open time of approx 20 minutes alleviating the panic mode that accompanies epoxy. ;-)

I glued up several beam samples and proceeded to torture test these (freezing, boiling, steaming and long term exposure as unfinished glued samples). The oak laminates checked severly from the boiling and steaming but the glue joints did not fail.

I would not recommend steam bending the laminations prior to gluing because in thin sections you would destroy the surface integrity for gluing. The thin sections would most certainly warp and check. Better to use cleanly planed and or thickness sanded sections that would take the form of your bending jig dry.

The best price point on Gorilla glue I found was at Amazon.com. I was able to buy very large (36 oz.) bottles for about $18.00 each this brought the cost down to less than any other high strength adhesive (ie epoxy or resourcenol).

Good Luck, I hope this helps.

[Bob Smalser]

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/P1000884.jpg

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86957

Lucky Luke recently posted this thread on a meranti schooner under construction in Viet Nam where not just lammed frames, but planking seams are being glued using liquid polyurethane (Gorilla) glue.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/P1000855.jpg

He chose poly specifically because the hard lams required steambending and they glued them fresh out of the steam box. Other glues set up too fast because of the heat. When I've done similar using Doug Fir, I clamp the steamed lams in place to take a set and let them cool before gluing with epoxy, although I also have some poly-glued knees out there as a trial. I've never had steaming ruin a surface for gluing, although it'd be something I'd watch for.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/P1000846.jpg

Overall an elaborate, expensive trial of both poly glue and glued seams.....it'll be interesting how well it all holds up in service.

[ssor]

Considering that many people use vinegar to clean up epoxy and the tannic acid content of oak and some other woods I think I understand why some folk report problems with glueing oak with epoxy. I had good success with steamed white oak and epoxy. Did the steaming leech out the tannic acids?

[pcford]

Considering that many people use vinegar to clean up epoxy and the tannic acid content of oak and some other woods I think I understand why some folk report problems with glueing oak with epoxy.

Yes, that's the connection I make.

Those that doubt can try it themselves. Prepare small blocks of wood by sanding with 80 grit or stronger. Glue...I use System 3, but I am told there are failures with other types. Let sit for a week. Insert chisel at glue line and give it a tap with a small hammer. The glue line will fail, failure of glue joint will be about 95%.
This has been a known problem with epoxies for the better part of thirty years. Sometimes epoxy/WO works; sometimes not. I was talking to a professional boatbuilder about thirty years ago and he said he did deck beams with deck screws long enough to pass through all lams.

Some people may think that because the lams stick together then it is a successful joint. Runabouts usually have a curved transom. The lower transom frame is often rotten. I recall gluing up a transom frame with epoxy...took it off the mold after a few days....pieces stuck together. Hit it on the floor...they all flew apart.

[P.L.Lenihan]

The only experience I have with epoxy and w.oak involves watching a friend lam an entire stem off a 40 foot fishing boat converted to a pleasure boat. The piece was about 6'long before turning onto the keel and was laminated from about 30 odd lams of w.oak. This was about 12 years ago and the boat is still going strong however it is used only in fresh water and hauled out each Fall for Winter storage.Another 12 years ought to be about right to evaluate whether it was a good choice or not. The lamination was glued together using G-2 epoxy from Industrial Formulators of Canada(now owned by System Three) and this epoxy was engineered to deal with the tanic acid in oak.....or so said the literature.
To date,over the course of four different boats, I've yet to experience any delamination of epoxy bonded parts. I like to attribute this to a particular practice I use when epoxying any parts together which was"taught" to me by my friend who did the stem replacement above. He calls it hollowing but he is French :)

Here are a couple of simple sketches I did some time ago to illustrate this technique over on the Bolger Yahoo group some years ago.The hollowing is key to ensuring the product stays where it will do the most good...in the joint:)


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9dd05b3127ccec6e40c921c7a00000040O02BauGzJmyZA9 vPgo/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/



http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9dd05b3127ccec6e46f02dd7300000040O02BauGzJmyZA9 vPgo/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/






This technique may be of use to you Mr.Ledger elsewhere also throughout the building of your boat.


Yours truly,


Tenner

[Jim Ledger]

[quote=Jim Ledger;2141902]

Google has an amazing array of searches in other contexts than just unscreened text on the web.
Google for resorcinol glue , then pick more, then shopping and you get a list of people who are selling resorcinol glue. You can sort by price or sometimes other things.

Damned if I know how it's done.

This is a great tip, Jim and I'd have never found it myself. It's going to save hours of google sifting in the future.

Thanks

[Jim Ledger]

Kitchen food scales are quite accurate, you might consider one with a glass table for easier cleanup. I don't know how much accuracy is actually needed, but you can buy a scale accurate to half a gram with a kilo capacity for around 30 bucks.


Blighty, it's amazing how cheap and accurate these things are. Using Mr. Conlins search feature, I'm sure I'll turn up a good one in no time at all.

BTW, can anyone comment on the difference in price between these two glues?

First the CPA resin at $115/gal...

http://cpadhesives.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=13&thiscat=1&frompage=Online_Store&page_num=1&=SID

... then, the Cascophen at $67.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/cascophen.php

Is there any real quality difference between the two?

[Jim Ledger]

Jim, my suggestion is to use Gorilla Glue - I've just completed laminating over 50 white oak deck beams for my Alden Sloop the Elliot White. The lamination schedule is 9 coarse of 5/16" air dried and planed laminations of w/oak glued up with Gorilla Glue polyurethane adhesive. Prior to setting out to complete this task I researched adhesives for this same problem. We know that Epoxy does not like a glue starved joint that the clamping forces would induce and resourcinol requires very strict temperature control and high clamping forces as well. It is also a more costly adhesive than Gorilla glue.

This adhesive was actually created/formulated for use in the Scandanavian marine market place. It is 100% impervious to water after curing and only requires a tight glue line to insure a strong bond. It actually cures from pulling moisture from the surrounding atmosphere so a slightly higher moisture content in the wood is desirable. Because the adesive expands during cure the "foaming action will not create a strong joint if the glue line has gaps. In making all of these deck beams I had no issues with this. Moderate clamping forces were all that was needed to sucure the beams. The glue has an open time of approx 20 minutes alleviating the panic mode that accompanies epoxy. ;-)

I glued up several beam samples and proceeded to torture test these (freezing, boiling, steaming and long term exposure as unfinished glued samples). The oak laminates checked severly from the boiling and steaming but the glue joints did not fail.

I would not recommend steam bending the laminations prior to gluing because in thin sections you would destroy the surface integrity for gluing. The thin sections would most certainly warp and check. Better to use cleanly planed and or thickness sanded sections that would take the form of your bending jig dry.

The best price point on Gorilla glue I found was at Amazon.com. I was able to buy very large (36 oz.) bottles for about $18.00 each this brought the cost down to less than any other high strength adhesive (ie epoxy or resourcenol).

Good Luck, I hope this helps.


Thanks for your excellent post, Mr. Maseli. Fifty deck beams is a testament to your faith in Gorilla Glue and the destructive testing sounds very encouraging. I've had very little experience with polyeurethane glue, something I should remedy, because it fills a very useful niche in the gluing spectrum. I know carpenters who love the stuff for exterior woodwork and doors, usually working in less-than-ideal circumstances.

However, for this particular purpose, the open time would give me trouble, whereas the resourcinol gives you hours before clamping. To lay up six laminates requires spreading twenty five square feet of glue, one face only. To spread that much glue, and assemble ready to clamp, alone, would be too rushed in twenty minutes.

BTW, I see you're from Bayshore. I'm not far away, and would like to see your boat, if possible.

[JimConlin]

Blighty, it's amazing how cheap and accurate these things are. Using Mr. Conlins search feature, I'm sure I'll turn up a good one in no time at all.

BTW, can anyone comment on the difference in price between these two glues?

First the CPA resin at $115/gal...

http://cpadhesives.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=13&thiscat=1&frompage=Online_Store&page_num=1&=SID

... then, the Cascophen at $67.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/cascophen.php

Is there any real quality difference between the two?

I'd expect that both vendors will answer the phone.

The aircraft folk are not risk-takers.

My epoxy scale is always covered with a light plastic bag. Its legibility and accuracy aren't affected.

[Jim Ledger]

Thanks, Jim

Bob Smalser, thanks for the link. An interesting build, to be sure, but I'd be leery of gluing single thickness planks up like that. But, that's just me, I'm sure they know what they're doing.

Peter, I'm only getting red X's where the sketches oughta be.:(

Ssor and PC Ford, if only I was gluing White Oak...;)

[Rational Root]

However, for this particular purpose, the open time would give me trouble, whereas the resourcinol gives you hours before clamping. To lay up six laminates requires spreading twenty five square feet of glue, one face only. To spread that much glue, and assemble ready to clamp, alone, would be too rushed in twenty minutes.


Try Balcotan 100 marine PU... Balcotan 100 cures in about 3-6 hours with up to 90 minutes open joint time.

see here http://davesboat.blogspot.com/2007/09/better-stick.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-jLgHzfXWAU/Ru7lieshNiI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/y4gsoPHiM4A/s320/IMG_0128.JPG

It's not gap filling, and it likes high clamping pressure. The foamed part of the glue has no real strength.

[Paul Maselli]

BTW, I see you're from Bayshore. I'm not far away, and would like to see your boat, if possible.

Hello Jim,

Would be glad to have you over to see Elliot White. I dropped you an email to follow up with my email and cell number.

Contact me.

BTW Where are you located? I'd like to see your Catboat too.

[P.L.Lenihan]

[quote=Jim Ledger;2143109]
Peter, I'm only getting red X's where the sketches oughta be.:(
quote]

I think(hope,pray ,wish and dream) that I have fixed it now.Let me know if you can see more than just the dreaded red Xs....I can't really tell from here Mr.Ledger.


Peter

[ToddFwbf]

I see the pics fine. Thanks for posting 'em.

[DDan]

For what it's worth, I chatted with a West System tech guy about a year and 1/2 ago. He blames problems epoxy gluing WO and other "strong" hardwoods on seasonal movement of WO and not surface chemistry. Most epoxies are not very flexible. If the wood on either side of the joint moves because of expansion/contraction with changing moisture, the strength of the WO means that the stress is relieved in the joint itself and not in the surrounding wood, as it would be with softer woods. This creates huge shear forces in the joints. West's recommendation is to use a combination of the following: 1) Use G-flex, as it's more flexible. 2) Keep the glue joints thicker, say by gluing rough sawn surfaces. (The "hollowing" technique described above is doing exactly this.) In this way, the shear is spread over a greater thickness and the epoxy has a better chance of giving enough to relieve the stress. 3) Back up the joint with mechanical fastenings. I also think aligning the grain whenever possible certainly makes sense.

In my current project, I've used resourcinol where I can get the glue lines thin enough and clamp uniformly enough, but have used WO and regular epoxy where I need some gap filling. (I've been too tight so far to try G-flex.)