Captains Varnish Rant

[J. Dillon]

I've been using this brand for years. I got one full 1 qt left but it will be the last one I buy of this brand.

Oh I'm satisfied with the quality and appearance when applied to Carrianne but I swear it has a built in shelf life. I had 1/3 of a qt left from last season. I transfered it to a bottle filled up to the top ...no air space left. I could see it looked Ok but appearances are deceptive. When I opened it to use it had gelled up, making it unusable. Even Pettit's thiner made it unacceptable for application. At over 30 bucks a qt I feel screwed by Peditt.:mad:

When this new can is used up I'm going to try Helmsman varnish. It does have UV inhibitors.

Pissed in CT

JD

[Roger Cumming]

Try Interlux Schooner varnish. It is a much higher quality product than Captains. It has a long shelf life, too - years, not months.

[David G]

Yes, there are lots of good varnishes out there, but Interlux #96 has become my typical varnish - unless a client is set on something else.

[Mrleft8]

I'll say it again.....Benjamin Moore 440 Spar Varnish.

[Brian Palmer]

I've got two quarts of Minwax Helmsman varnish, satin and gloss. Both were opened three seasons ago and are still fine in the original cans. One is about 3/4 full and the other only about 1/3 full.

Brian

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

JD I use Captains on Tidbit and I've been very happy with it's finish and most importantly its quick drying time and high build. What I do with left over is I add the thinner to it BEFORE storage, it seems to alleviate the problem you had.

Which reminds me I need to order 2 qt's from Jamestown.

[Bob Cleek]

I've used Captain's, or it's generic equivalent, WasteMarine's "Skipper's," for years. On occasion, I've had the same experience with a partial can gelling up. I've never figured out why. I've theorized that it may have been because I'd added an incompatible thinner to it, since it seemed it was the thinned stuff that kicked off in the can. (I've had the same thing happen with Penetrol, too, which was a surprise, and wasn't thinned.) Then again, I've had Epiphanes gell in the can as well. Go figure.

I wouldn't abandon Captain's just on account of one can, but then again, thirty bucks is a lot of money for a quart of varnish. I've been snagging four or six quarts of WasteMarine Skipper's for seventeen to twenty bucks a quart when they have it on sale as a "loss leader." One of the purchasing guys at WasteMarine told me their Skipper's is identical to Captain's and I've never been able to tell any difference between the two.

On the other hand, of late I've heard there have been a lot of changes in paint formulations owing to EPA regulations tightening on VOA levels and so on. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we don't see more surprises like this with products that look the same as what we've been using for years, but, while the label is the same, the stuff in the can isn't anymore.

[Jay Greer]

Once a can of varnish has been opened, it begins to oxidize immediatly. This means that it is beginning to gel from that moment on regardless of whether you transfer it to another can or not. However, there is a cure. The product is called Bloxegen; comes in a pressurized can and works like a charm. A squirt just under the lid prior to closure is all that is needed. I haven't had a can of varnish or paint go off in the can in years.
http://www.bloxygen.com/
Jay

[J. Dillon]

Jay a question ... If as you say gelling of the varnish is inherent to the stuff , why would displacing the oxygen in the can with Blyxygen work to stop the oxidizeing process?:confused: For my budget buying another product to save the contents of a can is over the top. Now a thirty buck can of varnish has to have more expense added.:eek: I'd rather find another brand of varnish that is more tolerant of a little air in the can.:) After this "Captains varnish" can stay on their shelf not mine.:rolleyes: I'll purchase one of the varnish producers mentioned above.

JD

[David G]

Mr. Dillon,

Jay's right. Even though I try to transfer to a smaller container, or float an artificial skin of saran wrap or butcher's paper on top of my open quart of varnish, and even though the Interlux seems to be pretty good about not gelling in the can, it still sometimes does.

I've tried the Bloxygen, and it works. It works because, IIRC, it displaces the oxygen with nitrogen, or argon (some inert gas, anyhow). Like you, I bridle at spending another chunk of dough to protect the expensive goo I've already spent a good bit on. My (far from rational) pattern seems to be to buy a can of Bloxygen only after I've had a problem with some varnish. I use it sporadically (being conflicted) until it's gone. Then I don't buy another can until I once more have a problem with some varnish.

Maybe I should just suck it up and keep Bloxygen on hand, and use it religiously, but I'm not sure it pencils out. It costs maybe $10 - 12. They advertise that's enough to do (again from memory) 60 - 75 shots. The way I use it and use varnish I've found that a can is good for maybe 2 - 3 quarts of varnish. So that adds $4 - 5 to a quart of varnish - though perhaps I'm using too much each time. Without it, I lose maybe a half-quart every 5 or 6 quarts. That's $13 worth of varnish. If you divide that by 5, I add $2.60 per quart to spoilage. That's cheaper than $4 - 5 for the Bloxygen.

There's something to be said, though for knowing that the half-quart on the shelf is actually usable. More than once, I've been SOL because it had gelled, and I had no more in-house, and the stores were closed. Or, I've found it so thickened that - even after thinning the maximum - it was still so thick it didn't want to brush or flow. I've always been able to tell when it's too far gone, but it's still nervous-making.


"Mistakes are the portals of discovery" -- James Joyce

[Bob Cleek]

There's another old trick I picked up along the way, but can't remember where. Come to think of it, maybe this is why I don't have too much problem with varnish gelling. The bloxigen post reminded me of a habit I have had so long I don't even think before doing it.

Carbon dioxide is heavier than air. So, what you do is put the cover loosely on the varnish can, but don't hammer it down. Take a really big deep breath and then hold it for as long as humanly possible. Then tip the top of the can up just a little bit at one side to make an opening and slowly exhale that carbon dioxide out of your lungs into the can and then cap it and hammer it down. It sits on the shelf and a layer of CO2 floats on top of the varnish.

Maybe it's an old wives' tale, but the old timers say it works.

[Jay Greer]

One can of Bloxegen lasts me through four or five quarts of varnish. I just opened a can of Behr that was used last year and was two thirds empty. Bloxegen kept it as fresh as a newly opened can.
Jay

[Jay Greer]

Jay a question ... If as you say gelling of the varnish is inherent to the stuff , why would displacing the oxygen in the can with Blyxygen work to stop the oxidizeing process?:confused: For my budget buying another product to save the contents of a can is over the top. Now a thirty buck can of varnish has to have more expense added.:eek: I'd rather find another brand of varnish that is more tolerant of a little air in the can.:) After this "Captains varnish" can stay on their shelf not mine.:rolleyes: I'll purchase one of the varnish producers mentioned above.

JD
Well, I'm sorry for all of us that the price of varnish has gone through the roof! On a commercial basis it is even worse for those of us who are in the wooden boat trade. I tried to spread the information about Behr Varnish while it was still available and only eight bucks a quart. Only a few of our group took the plunge and bought up what was left. I have yet to hear a single complaint concerning poor performance of Behr in any way shape or form. By the way, Bloxegen does work and work very well! If there is a Woodcrafters store in your area, they stock it.
Jay

[J. Dillon]

Mr. Cleek suggested blowing in a can. I tried that a few times too with mixed results. Maybe one needs some rottin teeth for it to be effective;):D Mr Petitt is laughing his a$$ off over this as we throw half a can away and get a new one.:( He is probably in cahoots with Mr. Bloxegen. They laugh all the way to the bank.

JD

[StevenBauer]

Lee Valley has Bloxygen, too. They call it "finish preserve".


Steven

[Bob Cleek]

Some guys also use those cheap greenish glass marbles they sell in craft and flower stores for filling flower vases. They drop the marbles into the can until the fluid reaches the top and then reseal it. When they fish the marbles out at the end, they toss them into a coffee can of solvent and rinse them off for reuse.

[hnsbrc]

Experience from my old physiology days tell me to doubt the benefit of breathing exhaled air into cans. Atmospheric air is 21% oxygen 79% nitrogen., exhaled air approx 18% oxygen and about 4% carbon dioxide. If it actually works to prevent oxidation maybe there is some other explanation, such as what else might be on that old timer's breath!:)
I suppose you could try re-breathing air in a paper bag multiple times first, be careful though.
On another note , think of the help for global warming storing all that carbon in those old paint cans.:):)

[Mrleft8]

A blast from a propane torch (unignited) should displace the oxygen in the can too.

[Jay Greer]

Mr. Cleek suggested blowing in a can. I tried that a few times too with mixed results. Maybe one needs some rottin teeth for it to be effective;):D Mr Petitt is laughing his a$$ off over this as we throw half a can away and get a new one.:( He is probably in cahoots with Mr. Bloxegen. They laugh all the way to the bank.

JD
The real culprit to blame for the new formulation of varnish and paints is the EPA! One might suspect that they consider wooden boat owners to be a major threat to the environment!
Jay

[Greg Nolan]

Products such as "Ofiice Duster," canned, pressurized gases designed to blow out computer keyboards and such, contain oxygen-free inert gases that are also non-flamable (potential problem with propane), and are much cheaper than Bloxygen.

[Jay Greer]

Greg,
Perhaps you might be kind enough to run an unbiased test on the other products and methods discussed here and report back to us?
Jay

[Dusty Yevsky]

I've had two half filled cans of Captain's sealed with Bloxygen kick off after sitting for six months in a cool basement. Fool me once...

[D Happ]

As soon as I open the can of varnish, it is poured into small water bottles and capped. I only use varnish out of one bottle and the rest stay tightly sealed until they are needed. I squeeze the one I'm working out of to bring the level of varnish up to the very top, then screw on the cap. It seems to keep for a long time like that. This way I'm exposing a little varnish to air instad of the whole quart.
Works for me.
Dan

[lesharo]

Gelling and Skinning

Seems to be related to the new formulations. Epifanes is now horrible. Just had terrible gelling with only a half inch of varnish used off the top! And yes i was very careful about making sur the lid and lip were clean and well sealed (like some kind of nut).

The Captains shouldn't have gelled since the container was filled. Obviously. Schooner used to be famous for skinning, but not really gelling.

My guess is that the care in making a good varnish product has dropped way off as a priority. How many cans of Captains are sold in a year? And Pettit Bak V Spar (which used to be good)? Maybe five cans of the Petit a year.

[Greg Nolan]

Jay --

I don't have the time, space, or materials to run anything like a reliable test. I have tried the "breathe into the can before closing" technique, but am not sure that it has had any effect. I have used Bloxygen with seeming success, and am now trying the Office Duster, based only on reading the contents label -- but have not done it often enough or long enough to have any idea whether it works or not. I have heard that propane works, but I would worry about someone who did not know that propane had been used opening the can at a later date near a spark or flame source.

Greg

[Todd Bradshaw]

I've mentioned this before, but I think the trick is not putting something into the can or bottle, it's removing everything but the paint or varnish. I use the amazing (as seen on TV) "Pump 'n Seal" vacuum sealer. It's basically an overpriced, mini, reversed bicycle pump made for sucking the air out of pickle jars, but the damned thing works like a charm on paint cans and mason jars. I think they're currently up in the $30 range, which is bordering on crazy - unless you have a bunch of expensive paint and varnish to preserve, in which case, it will soon pay for itself.

Here's how it works: You use the included, high-tech puncturing device (also known as a map-tack) to punch a pinhole in the lid. You then cover the pinhole with one of their sealing gizmos (looks like a yellow mini-band-aid with a little neoprene pad where the gauze would be on a band-aid). This forms a one-way valve. You center the suction cup on the end of the pump body over the band-aid and pump until the pumping motion gets stiff (maybe 15-20 strokes on a varnish can). At that point, the whole works is reusable. Open the can, breaking the vacuum, use some varnish, put the lid back on and pump it again. For long-term storage, I will usually go one step more, once it's been pumped, and stick a piece of clear packing tape over the band-aid. You will then need to put a new band-aid on the next time you seal it, but you get a lot of them with the unit.

This is a mason jar containing about half a quart of water-based guitar laquer (at $45 per quart). The stuff dries fast (fast enough that the last time I used it, I sprayed 19 coats in one day out in the garage at 45 degrees). It's also prone to developing little hard chunks floating around in it, which need to be strained out. I sealed it more than three years ago, stuck it on a shelf in the basement and it's still perfect, just like the day it was sealed. I do the same with varnish (including Captain's), Brightside, Easypoxy or anything else that costs big bucks when you're wasting partial cans.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/ktm9.jpg

Here is the blurb on the Pump 'n Seal. Order before midnight tonight and we'll double your order and throw in some Ginsu knives and a ShamWow!

http://www.pump-n-seal.com/

[Ted Hoppe]

For the guy who varishes once or twice a year - another option is to buy smaller cans... It does eliminate storage issues or oxidation issues. Cost issues run slightly more but no problems as mentioned above. One can wait till they go on sale for lost leaders, buy bulk or use the west marine rebate.

[J. Dillon]

It is interesting to see all the possible ways to prolong the can life that came up in this thread. Most of them I 've tried. But my last attempt of can longevity was to fill up a bottle right to the top with no air space then invert turn it over. It still gelled.
Coupled with what some have said in this thread I'm convinced Captain's varnish has a shelf life and no matter what you do it will gell up.:( My present can is my last. I'll never buy it again except to preserve straying insects .. ;)like you see in museums.

JD

[Jay Greer]

Dillon,
I would, deffinatly, say that your problem is worthy of a complaint specificaly directed to the manufacture of Captains Varnish. I can think of no person to persue the issue who would be better qualified than you! If you choose to do so, I know that we all would be interested in hearing what they have to say.
Jay

[C. Ross]

When I open a can of varnish I pour it into a freezer zip-lock bag, mark the date with a sharpie, and store the bag in a coffee can. No oxidation problems here.

[lesharo]

Ofice Duster: No luck! I thought it might work too.

Minwax Helmsman: Don't bother.

Epifanes: Used to last forever. If a can with a half inch! out of it gells; then something is up. We're dealing with a whole new animal here. It's either a bad batch or the new formualtion.

[Jay Greer]

The word is out that Behr is again available. However, the formulation has replaced the traditional linseed oil with soy. I have never had a problem with the old Behr going off in the can. Hopefullyl the new will be the same. Bloxegen is the key to sucess. My breath would curdle the contents.
Jay

[Stargazer14]

I just found a can of Epifanes High gloss under the dinette of my boat, has been there for 2 years thru the winters and summers, lid popped right off in my hand -
stuff was just a tad thicker than normal, but not much, added a few caps of spirits and the varnish is beautiful.

Two years - lid not on tight. still good. My experiment is done.

[lesharo]

Re: The Two Year Old Epifanes Not Going Off:
It's the OLD Epifanes; the old Epifanes didn't go off! For that matter; NOTHING went off! Schooner skinned over but it was still usable; it didn't gell. The only thing I have consistently lost in the past was clear sealer. Nothing else.
By the way; I just pulled out an old can of Coma Bernice by HMG and it didn't even have a skin on it! And the seal was lousy with dried varnish! Maybe that's the key, a lousy seal.

[Canoeyawl]

I was gifted a little planked-up model of a rowing skiff when I was ten years old.
I begged a dollar and walked down to the hardware store and bought a ½ pint of varnish and a small brush, varnished the model two coats and played with it at the town dock all that summer.

Now, the model is long gone and I had forgotten all about it, but at the old homestead I found that tiny can of varnish in the back hall closet with the shoe polish (Grandma never threw anything away) and used the last of it about two years ago. All just fine, no skimming in the can and the varnish kicked off promptly.
So – that’s about fifty years in a resealed can. Something is different.

[Jay Greer]

Yes, the !@#$%^% EPA is screwing up paint and varnish for wooden boat maintenance. And, I would guess that wooden boat owners contribute less than one millionth of a percent to environmental concerns.
Jay

[johnw]

That's it. I'm painting the whole bloody boat.

Know any good water-based paints?

[mike hanyi]

after all the reading of the complainen I never saw anybody mention using the stuff straight from the can- dipping your brush in the can and then it being resealed.

every time you wipe the excess off in the can take a notice of the little bubbles trapped in the excess that drips back in the can! putting air in the varnish-
Rylard varnish solved the problem by making square cans that the brush dont fit in!

that extra poured back in the can dont help either!

take out of the can what you need, and close the can, then take more if you run out.

[PeterSibley]

A blast from a propane torch (unignited) should displace the oxygen in the can too.

That's what I've been doing for some time ...when I remember .:o All I want is the oxygen replaced with a non reacting gas .

[BrianM]

I was gifted a little planked-up model of a rowing skiff when I was ten years old.
I begged a dollar and walked down to the hardware store and bought a ½ pint of varnish and a small brush, varnished the model two coats and played with it at the town dock all that summer.

Now, the model is long gone and I had forgotten all about it, but at the old homestead I found that tiny can of varnish in the back hall closet with the shoe polish (Grandma never threw anything away) and used the last of it about two years ago. All just fine, no skimming in the can and the varnish kicked off promptly.
So – that’s about fifty years in a resealed can. Something is different.

That's a great story, and a pretty darned good bit of evidence that the chemistry has changed quite a bit. Where's the Chemist when you need him.

[suedebriar]

I use Captains and the can before this one jelled up like you said. This can bought a few months ago from Jamestown is down to the last inch and it is still doing great. I don't know what to think.