Ethanol In Small Engines?

[Willin']

I've seen a lot of bad press lately regarding ethanol blended gasoline wreaking havoc with outboard motors. Has anyone heard anything similar regarding small engines on household tools?

The 10 HP Tecumseh on my chipper/shredder just started misbehaving yesterday after 6 years of fllawless service. I've checked all the obvious suspects, ie plug, air filter, dirty carb, oil etc. The local gas runs about 10% ethanol. Should I be concerned?

So far the chainsaw, snowblower, lawn mower and pressure washer seem unaffected, but I really don't want to learn too late that the stuff is bad news.

Thanks!

Mark

[Jay Greer]

According to those who know more about fuel and engines than I do, ethel alcohol is corrosive and can cause problems with carburator components as well as engine valves, which should be made of an alloy that is resistant to the corrosive problems caused by the ethenol.
Jay

[Thorne]

I thought another serious issue is the collection and separation of water in the fuel, as well as the ethanol separating over time. Isn't that why, even on new outboards rated for use with Ethanol, boaters are recommended to empty the tanks often, and if keeping any fuel in them to keep them full?

from http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/may/03/bz-boaters-fuming-over-ethanol-in-gasoline/news-money/ -

"The separation factor
The problem is that most boats sit for long periods of time without use. When ethanol-blended fuels sit in a gas tank for a long time, the ethanol begins to separate from the gasoline.
When engines consume pure ethanol, a highly corrosive solvent, the results can be disastrous. In addition to unraveling fuel lines, it can loosen sludge, varnish and dirt inside the gas tank, causing fuel lines and carburetors to clog.
Ethanol eats away at the fuel line, causing it to fail like a collapsing tunnel, Campbell said. "I have a few customers that have brand-new engines and it's actually eaten up the fuel lines completely," he said.
Also, ethanol prefers water over gasoline. If water is in the boat's gas tank, the ethanol will separate from the gasoline and bond with the water.
That means boaters could end up pumping a mixture of ethanol and water into their engine. If that happens, the boat could stall.
Most experts say it takes 60 to 90 days for ethanol to start separating from gasoline. But that's not always the case.
"I've seen it in 30 days," Campbell said."


(http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/may/03/bz-boaters-fuming-over-ethanol-in-gasoline/news-money/)

[Willin']

Interesting. I would have thought that the affected engine parts would have been converted over to ethanol safe materials back when gasohol was first introduced into the mainstream, in the early '80s IIRC.

Most of the reports/ blogs I've read go back and forth about whether your basic gas preservative solves the problem or not, but that wouldn't seem to address the corrosiveness issue. I wonder if anyone still makes straight gasoline anymore.

Thanks guys.

[Thorne]

To answer your questions, I believe that most ethanol-safe engines and fuel storage/delivery systems are rated for the mix of ethanol and gasoline -- but not (in some cases) for pure ethanol (after separation).

And yes, you can get gas with no ethanol in some locations, marina fuel docks would be a likely place to look.

[BBSebens]

Vehicles that are rated for E85 Ethanol are engineered specifically to handle the fuel. Most are called "Flex-Fuel" or something along those lines.

So my thought would be that if your equipment wasn't built to handle the corn gas then you probably ought not use it.

I do know that Ethanol fuel is not a potent as straight gasoline, so your 10hp motor may only be making 8 or 9. which, I presume, means it has to work that much harder, which likely means it's going to wear out sooner. However, after 6 years of decent use, it might be in need of a service.


IMHO, I wouldn't use the ethanol-gasoline in your small gas engines.

[Dan McCosh]

There was another thread on this subject relating to motorcycles. Ethanol has been an additive in most of the country for about 25 years, but some parts of the country, notably the East Coast, began seeing it in gasoline starting about three three years ago. It does have a solvent effect on various varnishes and sludge, which means changing over can stir these things up in the fuel system--not only in the vehicle, but on tank trucks, storage tanks, etc. Virtually all marine gasoline now contains about 10% of the stuff, and this was causing problems in marinas on the East Coast. Ethanol also attacks some rubbers an seals, although engines were supposed to be designed to handle it a long time ago. As an owner of a 75-year-old marine engine, I replaced the fuel lines some time ago. Anyway, cleaning, filtration, and more than usual concern about water in the gas seem to be the main way to deal with it.
Worst case is some fiberglass fuel tanks that were susceptible to ethanol, and needed to be replaced.

The oxygen content can affect mixture control, making the engine run lean. This is mainly a concern with electronically controlled engines, rather than small engines.

[Willin']

As a final update, I went old school on the engine and it seems to have resolved the loss of power and rough running I was experiencing.

I poured some top cylinder oil in the cylinder and let it soak overnight and added some to the fuel tank as well.

Today, after the oil burnoff was over it ran like new. God bless Marvel Mystery!:cool:

[Tylerdurden]

Sta-bil has additives which will help but not cure. I am in the habit of stocking carb kits and pulling them apart every season on motors that I depend on. On some small engines alcohol kits are available but scarce and hard to find most often. If your slick with a hand bender replacing the hoses with SS tubing or the easy route Alcohol rated hoses will slow the issue down. I have found its just as easy to clean the buggers though. If your handy and careful brazing a nipple to the bottom of the bowl and adding a petcock would eliminate many issues. Run dry on fuel and crack the petcock after use. If its a two stoke compensate by increasing the ratio just slightly to keep bores and reed lubed.

[AstoriaDave]

Been running Oregon's version of E-10 in my 65 hp gas Westerbeke inboard for a year and a half with no issues. Caveat: I always incorporate stabilizer with each fill. This engine is carbureted, not injected. Because it is a new engine, all of its fuel hoses, etc., are alcohol-impervious.

The comment about alcohol extracting varnish off hose surfaces is accurate. Hoses with varnish in them should be replaced or removed and cleaned.

The claim that alcohol is "corrosive" masks the reason alcohol in fuel can cause problems: it attracts water, which accelerates any corrosive process already working on your fuel system. Stabilize the fuel adequately and water should not collect in the system. And, over-winter storage preparation becomes more critical with E-10 and other alcohol-containing fuels. Fog it, protect it, and it should be fine in the spring.

Far as I'm concerned, the major drawback to E-10 is loss of horsepower, most noticeable in my pickup.

[Bill Huson]

Ethanol is for drinking.

Methanol is fuel.

Apparently the government twits haven't figured that out, or the corn farmer lobby has them by the short curly hairs.

[ahp]

I have thought about running small outboards, and inboard engines on 100% ethyl alcohol for years. I don't like gasoline on a boat. Ethyl has about 2/3 the energy of gas and methyl about 1/2 (Marks Mechanical Engineers Handbook) You would need to adjust the mixture richer.

Model airplane engines run on a cocktail of ethyl alcohol and other things but that is another story.

[johngsandusky]

It isn't just farmers, it's green.
Eat corn, drink alcohol, burn gasoline.