Dillema

[Tom Hunter]

You are on a boat, sailing, new guy on the helm, skipper on deck. Others on the boat wonder aloud if the small breaking waves around the boat indicate rocks and ask if the boat is heading towards them. You have more experience and local knowledge and know that the waves mean rocks and you say so very clearly.

Skipper alters course but heads directly towards a rock you can see. You say "we are heading towards rocks" and skipper says no, its safe. You have seven seconds to do something.

What do you do?

[The Bigfella]

Mutiny

[Paul Pless]

What do you do?so how'd it end up for you?

[Tom Hunter]

I'm still pondering, I will post the outcome, but would like to get some additional opinions before I end the story. It's not a good situation to be in.

So come on ladies and gents, seven seconds.

[Uncle Duke]

You say "Skip - that's Murphy's Rock!" (make up a name if you have to).
Doesn't mean he'll do anything about it - but it's a very specific warning, and that is what is needed.

[StevenBauer]

I'd say "Look, there's a rock dead ahead!" then grab something strong and hold on.


Steven

[outofthenorm]

You shout out "Rock dead ahead, Skip - 2 lengths!!!!"

If no response, scream out "Rock, Rock, Rock, Dead Ahead!!!!!"

A proper lookout never hesitates, always escalates.

[watson1990]

I guess that the main point here is that you only have a few precious seconds to react..and there is not enough time for the man in charge to respond to you even if he hears you and believes you: therefore ,the only thing you can do is to make sure that everyone hears you when you shout!!!! Prepare to come about in 3, 2, 1 NOW NOW NOW !!! !! come about .... you use what ever words you want to .in some instances swear words work wonders; in other cases they are simply ignored as the usual drivel...only you know the answer and there fore your choice of words must convey the spirit in which you say them .. Can you put the feeling of " OH MY GOD " into prepare to come about in 3,2,1 now !! ????

only you were there..if I were there that is what I'd do...

Kinda like pulling an "AL HAIG " !!! who remebers that ??

[RFNK]

Turn the radio on, check the position of the EPIRB and flares, grab a lifejacket and see where there are others for the other victims, move aft and hang on - you've already told him. Anyone who continues sailing towards anything that COULD be a rock is an idiot so telling him again isn't going to work. Rick

[Bruce Hooke]

Shout "Rock, 3 boat lengths (or whatever distance is correct) dead ahead, I can see it, come about now (or whatever the correct action is depending on the course being steered)."

[watson1990]

Of course,if you only have 7 seconds and you just spent 2-3 telling him about the rock, then ,with only 4 + - seconds left, you are in a no win situation. If you yell out"prepare to come about in 3,2,1 NOW NOW NOW ,,,then you only have 2 seconds left to turn the boat,assuming everyone does everything you said to do ,which is unlikely . Then ,when you hit the rock, it will be your fault ,not the fault of the idiot who got you there...
I quess that the safest thing would be to say ,when you still have the 7 seconds left ..is " Skipper, that is a rock dead ahead !!!

Now its his problem [as it was ] and his ignorance or lack of attention that got the boat into the situation is to blame ...otherwise , when the stuff hits the fan, some will pass the buck and remember : the road to hell is paved !

[rufustr]

Make it plain in a loud fashion that he will hit the rock, and after that, if he is the Skipper, brace for impact.:eek::eek:

I don't think it's appropriate to take over.:(:(

[Thorne]

You can't really wrestle him for the helm -- I suspect you'd need to treat it much like it would be if he was driving a van on the highway. Shout, point, make it clear he's gonna hit something; but if you grab the helm or wheel and anything bad happens, you'll likely get the blame in court.

[outofthenorm]

I don't think it's appropriate to take over.:(:(

I do. I'd start giving orders in my "command voice" ... "Turn Hard Left, Now! Now! Now!"

If I thought there was time to do it in the situation, I'd throw the pr#@k down the hatch and take the wheel.

I think avoiding a collision, a severe grounding, or a sinking is more important than avoiding a lawsuit.

[paladin]

Having been in a similar situation...it ain't worth the heartburn.....

Captain...you're heading for a stall....Son....I know what I'm doing....
(leading edge slats come out)

Uh, Captain.....
we're at 500 feet...pattern altitude.....

(feel a slight shudder) Captain reaches for throttle....

Making tight left hand turn to align with runway......suddenly aircraft drops hard on runway, partially collapsing the right landing gear and bending the frame inward at that point...plane is stopped....overheard Captain tell air ops that we had a downdraft at the end of the runway.....

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I would barge him off the helm and shove it over. No hesitation.

Chuck, that reminds me of a story told by a friend of mine, with many years in East Asia, who runs a ships' officers' training centre, about a Korean domestic flight - the plane is turning base when the proximity alarm sounds - Captain cancels it. Tower calls up - "Go round - your wheels are up!" Captain replies "Don't tell me how to fly a plane!" and lands, wheels up.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Take the helm !!!, then I would have 5 seconds to gloat as we pass the obvious rock. :)

[paladin]

Similarly, we had two Japanese 747 cattle cars go off the runway in Anchorage , Alaska in the same month.....pilots were warned about extreme cross winds and it was suggested that they use an alternate runway....in both cases the Japanese pilot declined citing that they made numerous flights each month and were aware of the conditions......and both times they touched down and were blown sideways into the ditches on the side of the runways.....very expensive landings....and they had to dispose of the cargo locally for pennies on the dollar....on the hoof.

[Lew Barrett]

I was in an airplane that crashed hard and I saw it coming, too. It's one of my early stories here on the forum, told years ago. The dude's actual move, the one that pushed us out of the sky, happened so quickly, I never really had a chance to even say anything, although I probably should have piped in when the tomfoolery that preceded the crash started to get out of hand. That was when saying or doing something might have made a difference.....not when the fool did a wing over at 300 feet, but as the situation started to develop. In retrospect, it took longer than a split second for us to come a cropper. Keeping well off a rocky shore (or maintaining adequate altitude according to one's intentions) is the first obvious choice. And today, I would probably take corrective action well in advance, even if it meant some embarrassment when it turned out that I had made an incorrect assumption.

But if I did have the time and could do it over and say it over to the pilot in command, I'd do everything short of shoot him to make my point. And if, in retrospect, I could have overpowered him to take command, I should gladly have done that. The consequences of the crash were dreary and easily would have been best avoided for all concerned. An inshore grounding? I don't know. On my boat, a fellow with local knowledge would be most welcome on an unfamiliar shore. Maybe the first mistake was getting on the boat! Only half kidding...but the half that's kidding, is kidding :D

[rbgarr]

How fast is the boat moving?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

How fast is the boat moving?

7 seconds fast. ;)

[rbgarr]

At a knot or two in calm water and a stout boat it could be 'a learning experience'. At six knots in steep waves in a flimsy boat it could be 'That's all she wrote".

At the least I'd tell everyone to sit down and hang on tight. Noses can get broken.

[Bruce Hooke]

Lew raises a very good point...indirectly...which is if someone on board had local knowledge, why was the boat 7 seconds from hitting a rock? Granted, it is not the job of the person with local knowledge to keep track of the boat's position and keep a lookout, but it would certainly have been a very good thing if that person had noticed and pointed out the proximity of the rocks earlier, in time for there to be some discussion and a look at a chart...

[Tom Hunter]

Thanks for the comments so far, I will fill in the details later tonight.

In answer to a couple of questions, the boat was traveling at about 5 knots.

The reason for the very short time to react (watson asked this) was the course change. We went from sailing into danger to sailing directly at a rock that was very close.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I would barge him off the helm and shove it over. No hesitation.

I have thought about my answer and I know that is what I would do.

I'm not at all like that, ashore. I faff and fiddle around and don't act decisively and I try very hard to be polite. But boats have always been different, for me.

[BrianW]

You say "we are heading towards rocks" and skipper says no, its safe. You have seven seconds to do something.

What do you do?

Make him a very large bet. :)

[BarnacleGrim]

If I can't persuade the skipper to change course I guess all I can do is crack open a life raft and get the grab bag...

[John B]

I've done it . In fact I've done it at least twice..except it wasn't a rock, it was boats. You yell and you take the helm.

[rbgarr]

If it was other boats, I'd grab the helm, too. Rocks might be another matter. It depends on how well I know the skipper and how much he trusts me.

Say he doesn't know me from Adam. I grab the helm. In trying to avoid the rock I know is there I hit another one. It could get ugly:

Skipper: "I said we were heading in the right direction! I could see we'd make it past the rock in front of us (etc.)" True or not, it is his boat, his judgment and his responsibility in the end.

I've been there also as 'the owner on deck' while my nephew was steering. We slid over a ledge (at about two/thee knots in calm water). It was my fault and responsibility. I fixed the dent in the lead keel though he felt very bad about it, which he shouldn't have.

Five knots is a tough call, though. That's pretty dangerous.

[John B]

A mistake is one thing , but when its a ' watch this ' show off situation its a bit different.
I was racing on a 41 ft boat as a guest a few years ago, they were heading for the mud off devonport . We all knew it was close , in fact one of the guys was even reading down the depth sounder every 10 sec or so. They counted it right down to about 2.5 metres all jolly and laughing about how fine they were cutting it, and then still stuck it on the putty. Smartarses, I got off that boat and never went back.

Once we were back at the marina that is.

[rbgarr]

Racing in Charleston Harbor years ago we were following the edge of the channel on a tight spinnaker reach (33' sloop). A bigger boat tried passing us to windward but slid right up on the mud and stopped. If they'd called for room we would have given it, but they weren't even within shouting distance when they went on. She drove right up on that soft 'plough mud' (a sticky silt) at a sharp angle of heel. Bad news. Either they weren't paying attention to their position relative to the channel or they thought they could skate over the flats.

[Tom Hunter]

Filling in the details, with some things left out to avoid names

We were sailing into danger with a new crewmember at the helm and the skipper giving direction. We were sailing South West. The rocks were ahead of us, and also to the South of us, I’m not sure what was West, and safe water was North East.
I did not know this at the time, but the skipper thought we were 300 to 500 yards North East of our actual position. Skipper has local knowledge, I do, and so does one other member of the crew. I’m the most paranoid about hitting land.
As I said at the start of the thread there was increasing concern from the crew that we were sailing into danger. I had seen waves break, and watched them break in the same place a few times, and was certain there were rocks underneath the waves. Others on the crew saw the same thing, the skipper heard this, and reacted reasonably by ordering a course change.
Unfortunately he did not choose to sail back the way we came. Instead he had the helmsman alter course to the South and East, straight at a rock. That is when we had seven seconds, or maybe five, it sure as hell was not much, in boat lengths no more than five, and maybe three.
I had time to consider grabbing the tiller, but chose not to, I did say we were heading right for a rock, then said it louder. The Skipper contradicted me and said it was safe, I said I can see the rock. Then we ran out of time, I braced myself and we hit.
One guy went overboard but had the lifelines in his hands, just his pants got wet. No one was hurt, we got organized and the boat was floated off by a rising tide. The boat has a steel keel, no water came on board and we motored home.
I think we were lucky no one was injured, if someone had been hurt I think I would be cursing myself for not grabbing the tiller. I could have yelled louder at the crew, and maybe they would have braced better and not gone overboard. I asked the other members of the crew and none of them knew we were going to hit in spite of me saying “there is a rock right in front of us” several times in a loud voice.
The skipper has been sailing these waters for more than 40 years, I first went sailing with him when I was seven years old. He doesn’t really deserve some of the derogatory remarks in the thread, though he did make a foolish mistake.

[Tom Hunter]

A few specific replies to individual posts:
Joe

Take the helm !!!, then I would have 5 seconds to gloat as we pass the obvious rock

Two problems with this, first, it’s doubtful anyone else would see the rock. Especially since they would all be looking at the nutcase who just grabbed the tiller and threw the boat into a violent maneuver against the captains specific direction. Unfortunately the rocks were not easy to see if you did not have a trained eye. Though I agree, if the rock was easy to see this would have been the right thing to do, because an obvious rock would be self explanatory.
One of the reasons I posted this is the specific situation was very difficult, Joe’s suggestion is right if the rock is obvious, but it was only obvious to me. Everyone else thought we were fine, after all the captain was saying we were.

Bruce,
I had already mentioned that we were sailing off the chart in my pocket, and in fact we did see rocks and turn. The rocks were ahead of us and to port, and we turned to port, where they were very close. Your post makes a good point, I made two mistakes in this affair. One, if I had said we have rocks ahead and to port that might have saved us from the port turn. Two, I assumed the captain would sail us back out the way we came in. I was shocked and horrified when I realized that he was not going to do that. The surprise did not paralyze me completely, but it was bad for moral. First I told the captain about the rock I could see, when he said we were ok I used one or two of my seconds thinking “what the f*(k do I do now!?!” Then started yelling.
Rbgarr makes a good point, I knew for certain we were heading for a rock, but I did not have a chart, and could have hit another if I grabbed the helm. Or I could have been too late. We were really lucky that no one got hurt, it could easily have been different.
Finally I would like to thank everyone who replied. This is the most difficult decision I have ever made while underway, and I still have some thinking to do, you have all been helpful.

[Paul Pless]

The details, especially of the long term personal relationship between you and the skipper make the situation/decision even more complex. I'm with rbgarr earlier post, agreeing with him that if you take the tiller and then put the boat on the rocks that could be very bad indeed, even the more so in our litigious society.:(

When did this happen? recently I assume?

I'd be interested in hearing both Gareth's and Mickey's views...

I’m the most paranoid about hitting land.
You must have done so before, I've been in boats that have done so as well... it sucks.

[Tom Hunter]

Hi Paul,

Happened last night. Your right about the personal side of it.

But your wrong about running aground, I have not done it yet. I've yet to have an injury on a boat under my command too. Not saying it will not happen someday, but I'm cautious about these things.

I have screwed up my course, gotten confused or disoriented before. Most times I have realized there was a problem and sailed in a direction known to be safe, then figured out the right position. Once my brother saved me by quietly suggesting that my dumb idea (the bouy light was broken) was wrong, and we should keep looking before we turn.

That is one of the reasons I was shocked when I said we were heading towards a rock that I could see. I can't imagine myself ever telling someone that we are safe when they say we are heading towards a rock they can see.

[Bruce Hooke]

Bruce,
I had already mentioned that we were sailing off the chart in my pocket, and in fact we did see rocks and turn. The rocks were ahead of us and to port, and we turned to port, where they were very close. Your post makes a good point, I made two mistakes in this affair. One, if I had said we have rocks ahead and to port that might have saved us from the port turn. Two, I assumed the captain would sail us back out the way we came in. I was shocked and horrified when I realized that he was not going to do that. The surprise did not paralyze me completely, but it was bad for moral. First I told the captain about the rock I could see, when he said we were ok I used one or two of my seconds thinking “what the f*(k do I do now!?!” Then started yelling.

Thank you for sharing this story.

It is easy to see in retrospect that it would have been good to say rocks ahead and to port, but since you had no reason to think he would turn to port it is easy to see why you did not say that. Realistically, given how fast things happened, it seems like you did about as much as you could. Given the tight quarters, I think you were right not to grab the tiller. Among other things, since you were under sail, an unplanned turn without some sail handling could have put you in just as bad a situation with the boat stalled and getting pushed onto the rocks.

Since the skipper had local knowledge and considerable experience you had every reason to expect that he would be on top of the situation. There is a reason why someone needs to be in charge on a boat -- because when things are happening fast there is not time to talk things through. So, the skipper bears responsibility here. He should have been paying more attention to navigation and also should have listened to you when you said you could see a rock ahead. I know I'd be jumping pretty fast if someone said they could see a rock ahead! All of that said, who here has not made a mistake at some point?

The good thing is that you were in conditions where the boat could readily be refloated. I've been off plenty of rocky shorelines where a boat going ashore would likely be in pieces or at least very beat up in short order.

[rbgarr]

It's a bad situation for which there's not much training. At age fifteen I was sailing from Cape Cod to Maine with my family. My dad needed to take a nap for awhile and he asked me to steer. He gave me instructions, and I was eager to help, but got confused about where we were on the chart after a bit, and unknowingly mistook one buoy in the distance for another. It was pretty calm and at a certain point I noticed a brownish spot in the water a bit to the port of our course, maybe a boat length ahead. I began to get worried and called out to my dad, but the main thing was that I froze. We sailed by a rock that was about three feet under water and five feet off the beam. My eyes were like saucers as I stared at it. My dad bolted up out of the cabin and told me to steer off shore, to port. But I couldn't move, and it turned out to be for the best because when he scanned the chart and got our bearings it turned out there were more rocks off in that direction, and none on our track.

Just dumb luck, but a lesson I took to heart. It almost ended our cruise before we got twenty miles from home.

Several times during the cruise my brother and I would take over the chart reading and navigation. On the return from way Down East we were sailing about ten miles from where I live now. We couldn't for the life of us pick out the buoys in the sun-struck waters along our course so we headed offshore where we could see from the chart that there were no ledges. My dad got frustrated ("Can't you see that black can yet?!?") but I wasn't going to run the risk of another rock incident like earlier in the trip.

Eventually we came about and could see the buoys far off to leeward and much farther away than we had been looking for them.

Looking back on it, I suspect our young brains (fifteen and twelve) weren't as capable of flexible problem solving in an unfamiliar location as was needed at the time. In home waters I knew every sandbar and how deep the water was over each at every stage of tide, but getting my bearings in a new place? Not so much.

[Hwyl]

I'm not sure what I would have done, I teach quite a lot and consider the lesson to be a failure if I have to touch the tiller (as opposed to many instructors who only hand over the tiller for short controlled periods). But I have grabbed the tiller and am concerned that others would even contemplate fear of litigation.

In your case, it really boils down to your relationship with your mentor and the pupil becomes the master transition, Diplomacy should have crept in quite a few minutes before. "Geez Herbert, don't you think we're taking a risky strategy?". "With the new guys onboard, wouldn't this be an ideal time for an exercise in navigation".

Always a difficult situation, on the rare occasion that I've done deliveries with the owner on board we always sit down and parse out responsibilities with me having ultimate veto power, or I don't go.

[bamamick]

I agree completely with A C-B. I would worry about niceties after the fact and if everyone on the boat got upset with me then so be it, but I can't stand idly by and allow a disaster to happen.

One of the things that always amazes me about our sport is that you can leave the dock on a perfectly nice day and come back in thousands of dollars the poorer through some small error in judgement or a change in the weather. It may be aggravating at times, but it is seldom boring.

Mickey Lake

[outofthenorm]

... it really boils down to your relationship with your mentor and the pupil becomes the master transition, Diplomacy should have crept in quite a few minutes before. "Geez Herbert, don't you think we're taking a risky strategy?". "With the new guys onboard, wouldn't this be an ideal time for an exercise in navigation".



Gareth, your point is a really good one - prevention is smarter and better than a cure. I've done exactly the same thing, ie: demanding "veto power" in training or guidance situations. There is no time for negotiation at the critical moment. It must come beforehand.

But in the scenario posed, it's a cure that was needed. I'll repeat my POV from earlier, but only because this is one of the important things that I think everyone needs to know:

Tell your crewmates, and yourself, that a proper lookout never hesitates, and alwaysescalates. It's not just an idea, it's a duty.

Tell yourself, and your crewmates, that avoiding a dangerous incident is always more important than avoiding either embarrassment or a lawsuit.

- Norm

[peter radclyffe]

You are on a boat, sailing, new guy on the helm, skipper on deck. Others on the boat wonder aloud if the small breaking waves around the boat indicate rocks and ask if the boat is heading towards them. You have more experience and local knowledge and know that the waves mean rocks and you say so very clearly.

Skipper alters course but heads directly towards a rock you can see. You say "we are heading towards rocks" and skipper says no, its safe. You have seven seconds to do something.

What do you do?
start interviewing your skipper with a video camera

[bucheron]

Tom H stated a newbie was on helm, skipper was on deck.

He did not state that the skipper took over steering. I understand " the skipper altered course" to mean that he instructed newbiehelm to alter course, and he did.

To me this is relevant because if one grabbed the helm, a newbie would be much more likely to surrender control than an owner/skipper doing his own steering.

I think TomH did as much as any person could be reasonably expected to do.

Calling loudly "BRACE FOR CRASH" could be helpful.

I have a very incomplete understanding about something like "collective responsibility" in the aviation scene, which means that the crew cannot shrug and say the captain takes all the blame for a mishap.

Thanks for a very useful crisis for all to think about.

cheers buchie

[martin schulz]

I find this problem Tom stated very unnerving, as I know exactly how he must have felt in the situation.

When crewing as bosun on traditional boat I have come across some inexperienced skipper once in a while. Sometimes they were just unaware about local conditions.

Now in "our trade" where the bosun handles everything before the mast and the skipper relies on comands being strictly followed one often has to decide weather to follow the order, even knowing that it doesn't make sense, or to walk back to discuss the order given, which very often isn't possible. And sometimes an order given, which at first appears to be wrong, can be the right one in the end, since one can not see inside the slippers head to know what he is up to.

I always try to follow orders very strictly, thereby often educating the skipper to give better and more precise orders. Very often the skipper will give orders expecting the bosun to think as well, but I always try to make clear that you can't hev it both ways - either you give precise orders and expect the bosun to follow them, or you allow some leeway, but have to expect the bosun to alter the order given.

[Ian McColgin]

I've twice taken command away from a skipper who was standing us into danger. Once he was so generally confused and compliant that I just stepped him aside as my bulk took the wheel. The other time he had a death grip on the wheel and I slugged him. He pretty much slumped while the rest of the crew followed my orders.

As founding Commadore of the Kedgers' Club - if the seagulls aren't walking, we'll sail - I'ver taken the ground and bounced off rocks pretty much everywhere I've sailed - Florida to Maine, Carrabian, Pacic Northwest, Africa, New Zealand. I've never had much luck in a sail boat just reversing course partly because sailboat's often don't, especially if you got there with the wind at your back, and because if you've schmeozzled into ribbons of shoals, especially in poor visibility, the chances of exactly retracing are exactly none. Remember, you loose control when stopped and will make some leeway or drift gathering steerage way.

In the two instances I actually took the helm, it was conveneint to luff up and look. That gave a second for everyone to get onboard with the danger, even if i was the only one with a plan. In the instance where I hit the owner, we actually had to thread some spottable rocks while we bumped the sandy bottom in the trough of the waves as we ground our way over a hump and into the channel for which we were aiming. It might not have worked but we sure were not going out the way we got there. As we bumped I told the crew we had a bood chance of getting trapped and part of the goal was to keep the boat oriented best way so we might come off later. Those not needed for sailing I detailed to preparing for the worst. In the event, we bumped over to safety.

You do what you must and all actions or warnings but no action are based on judgement of the consequences, dangers, and blind faith in yourself.

In the case presented, the impact was not damaging, often the case if you can let the keel take the blow, and a shouted warning might well have been the best thing. No major harm is a good thing.

Good exercise.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

One of the things that always amazes me about our sport is that you can leave the dock on a perfectly nice day and come back in thousands of dollars the poorer through some small error in judgement or a change in the weather. It may be aggravating at times, but it is seldom boring. Mickey Lake

Very nicely put. I'm going to steal that line. :D

[Tylerdurden]

I only had it happen to myself once while entering Government Cut in a squall. I was on radar while calling corrections to a buddy at the helm. For some reason when it got tight he overloaded and got confused making three course changes in the wrong direction.
I took the wheel saying "I got it" once calmly and then the second a little more forcefully. We had women's on board and I think he was embarrassed and never forgave me for doing it. Fact was it was my boat and if he took it hard its his problem.

While flying invariably it was a student and though one or two times I had to fight a death grip it seemed to be handled without any argument. I warn those I am with that when I say "I got it" resisting only resorts to rapid violence.

As far as the posted situation goes I am with Andrew and really could give a damn what anybody thinks when it comes to saving the craft and those aboard from apparent danger. If they didn't see the rocks and think I was an a-hole for doing it so be it.
To me there is only one keeping score that matters.

[Chris Coose]

It's why they used to place dual controls in Driver Ed cars.
Sometimes you've just got to take a spoke and turn her down.

Found an interesting recommendation in Chapman's in my recent exam studies.
When a collision (boat to boat) is clearly unavoidable, turn toward the thing as you will place less mass to be smuck.

[rbgarr]

Is 'smuck' a technical term? :D

[Chris Coose]

Smuck is a nautical term, likely finding it's origins (or at least it's popularity and longevity) in Downeast dialect.
Smuck is an apt description for a vessel collision with about anything including sea creatures such as whales.
Smuck has been further adapted for landside collision, used regularly to describe the impact "up the side of the head" with a 2x4.

[Nanoose]

You said the skipper is not at the helm, but on deck?
The skipper has ultimate responsibility and therefore authority for the boat.
The skipper relieves the helmsman of his post.
To not do so puts the skipper in dereliction of duties.
Being at the helm does not equal authority - doesn't put that crew member in charge.
IMHO.

[Mad Scientist]

I'll disagree with Nanoose a little - my POV is that the helmsman had what is called 'charge and control' when he took the helm, unless he was under supervision.
Of course, the Skipper bears the ultimate responsibility. When Tom H shouted out his warning, the Skipper should have taken over and taken steps to stop or slow the boat - yes, I know that it isn't easy to stop a sailboat - and, if possible, not altered course until he had determined the safest course to come to.
About the events that led up to this incident - Tom H was maintaining a proper lookout (as required by law), and gave the appropriate warning. But, who was navigating? The helmsman should have known where the vessel was, or asked for help. If he was not sufficiently experienced in navigation, he should not have been left alone at the helm.
So, I'm inclined to blame the Skipper for giving 'charge and control' to an underqualified helmsman.

Yeah, I know that the foregoing sounds excessively 'legalistic', but that's just a result of my background...and an official inquiry would have been 10 times worse.

Tom

[alkorn]

Has anyone out there read The Caine Mutiny?

Similar situation, though not as straightforward. Destroyer/Minesweeper in typhoon. Captain wants to keep on fleet course, but ship keeps broaching to. Exec takes over and turns into wind.

[George Roberts]

Put on a life jacket. Make sure everyone of value to you has a life jacket on. Hold on tight. Push those who you do not have value in out of the life boat.

[johnw]

Tom, I think you did the right thing. It's not your vessel, and if you seized the helm and hit a different rock, how would that have gone over? You gave the warning. That's what you needed to do.

[ben2go]

Filling in the details, with some things left out to avoid names

We were sailing into danger with a new crewmember at the helm and the skipper giving direction. We were sailing South West. The rocks were ahead of us, and also to the South of us, I’m not sure what was West, and safe water was North East.
I did not know this at the time, but the skipper thought we were 300 to 500 yards North East of our actual position. Skipper has local knowledge, I do, and so does one other member of the crew. I’m the most paranoid about hitting land.
As I said at the start of the thread there was increasing concern from the crew that we were sailing into danger. I had seen waves break, and watched them break in the same place a few times, and was certain there were rocks underneath the waves. Others on the crew saw the same thing, the skipper heard this, and reacted reasonably by ordering a course change.
Unfortunately he did not choose to sail back the way we came. Instead he had the helmsman alter course to the South and East, straight at a rock. That is when we had seven seconds, or maybe five, it sure as hell was not much, in boat lengths no more than five, and maybe three.
I had time to consider grabbing the tiller, but chose not to, I did say we were heading right for a rock, then said it louder. The Skipper contradicted me and said it was safe, I said I can see the rock. Then we ran out of time, I braced myself and we hit.
One guy went overboard but had the lifelines in his hands, just his pants got wet. No one was hurt, we got organized and the boat was floated off by a rising tide. The boat has a steel keel, no water came on board and we motored home.
I think we were lucky no one was injured, if someone had been hurt I think I would be cursing myself for not grabbing the tiller. I could have yelled louder at the crew, and maybe they would have braced better and not gone overboard. I asked the other members of the crew and none of them knew we were going to hit in spite of me saying “there is a rock right in front of us” several times in a loud voice.
The skipper has been sailing these waters for more than 40 years, I first went sailing with him when I was seven years old. He doesn’t really deserve some of the derogatory remarks in the thread, though he did make a foolish mistake.


I think you made the correct choice.I believe the skipper may have been overly confident or distracted.I would never order course changes close to land unless I could see or had someone I could trust to be my eyes above deck.Being the take charge person that I am,I would have went for the tiller right away,knocking the helmsman to the deck.

[John B]

Smuck, I love it . I heard the noise a Harvard made when it smuck the runway (when Dave Hadfield was out here a month or so ago).. perfect word for it.

as to the original question , I'm amazed at how many of you would let a boat get run up when you have the knowledge. Bizarre.

[py]

I'd definitely take the helm.

I took my son for a driving lesson a few weeks ago. He'd been up a bit late the previous night and was a bit tired-I didn't realise just how tired. I noticed us drifting a bit toward the side of the road-and said "Sam, where you going?" at the same time I grabbed the steering wheel and turned us back on course. Turned out he'd fallen asleep.

I guess as the instructor I was in "control" anyway, so its not a good example in legal terms. But bugger the law, in those or similar circumstances I'll do what I need to to avoid injury or death, and deal with the niceties later on.

Phil

[Tom Hunter]

Nanoose,

I never said that the helmsman was in charge and never intendend to place any blame on him, sorry if you got that impression. The skipper was in control of the boat, the helmsman was following steering orders and as far as I can tell did exactly what was asked of him.

John, there are a number of people who posted situations where they did take the helm. In the examples you described where a collision was impending, I would be inclined to make a grab for it. All the situations where someone did grab the helm have one thing in common, the person taking control knew a safe place to point the boat.

This situation was a little more difficult, because there was no promise that an additional turn would save us, and there was very little time. Also, we would have gone through a tack with an unprepared crew, some of whom were standing up and might have gone overboard.

The skipper was navigating. I did notify him that we were sailing off the chart that I had in my back pocket, and asked if there were rocks ahead. That was five or 10 minutes before we saw the rocks. I don't think the helmsman bears any responsibilty for the navigation in this case.

I made three assumptions that were not correct in this incident. First, that the skipper knew where he was and the local danger at the time we sailed off the racing chart in my back pocket. Second, that others, especially the skipper, knew the location of the rocks when the warning went out from me and others that we were sailing into rocks. Third, when it was too late to change course, I assumed that others were paying attention when I said we were going to hit the rocks.

I don't blame myself, but I do like to analize this kind of accident to see how it can be avoided, and what I can do personally so that there is no next time.

One thing I do take away from John's posts, I'm going to get a lot more strident a lot earlier. This could have been very bad, we were lucky.

[py]

Sam got his licence today. I think the falling asleep was a great lesson for him. He's got a good understanding of just how easily an ordinary drive can go bad. I have a good feeling that he's going to be pretty careful.

[Larks]

I'm a bit surprised to see that this thread is still going. Pride comes before a fall (and a few others along the same line).....if you are about to hit the bricks and can prevent it, do so. Worry about smoothing egos later.