Question on my Eel Plans

[Y Bar Ranch]

OK, got plans for Garden's eel. Officially over my head with them. This will be first in a series of dumb questions.

1. In a couple of places on the plans it uses the phrase "P&S". For example, on the stem it says "attach wedges P&S" Does "P&S" mean port and starboard, i.e., both sides?

[Popeye]

yes ;)

[ 09-29-2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[JimD]

Yup. Port and Starboard. See, you already knew the answer. Great boat, by the way. Hope you can post pics of your progress. Next question?

PS - Don't pay too much attention to popeye. He's always talking through his AE.

[Y Bar Ranch]

Next dumb question:

I plan to strip build my Eel. In Garden's book, he says you can eliminate the frames if strip building.

On the plans, it says if strip building, to put frames on 16" centers if strip building (instead of 8" if carvel).

Also on the plans, in another unrelatd spot, it says if strip building frames only needed up to floor timbers. I might be off on the words, I'm at work and plans are at home. I'll check tonight.

The plans were redrawn and so differ from Garden's description. does anyone have a copy of 30 Wooden Boats? I am curious to hear what the study plans for Eel have to say, if they address this issue at all. Thoughts on stripping and frames?

As an aside, I asked Woodenboat if they could fax me copies of the study plans from the book pertaining to the Eel. Having spent $100 on plans and over a hundred more on design and building books, I felt it reasonable. They gave me a hearty "No". I think if you buy plans from them, you should get the study plans too.

[garland reese]

Good luck! Eel is a lovely design. And a grand little boat, from what I've learned. I've spoken with a few builders of eel, and they all love their boats.

If you stripbuild and sheath, either in 'glass or veneer, you will eliminate the need for much of the full frames. Others here are much more qualified to make recommendations than I.... ;)

Garland

[Popeye]

abbrev on blue prints (navy) and some nomenclature (http://www.history.navy.mil/books/nnv/abbrev.htm)

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Y Bar Ranch:
Next dumb question:

I plan to strip build my Eel. In Garden's book, he says you can eliminate the frames if strip building.

On the plans, it says if strip building, to put frames on 16" centers if strip building (instead of 8" if carvel).

Also on the plans, in another unrelatd spot, it says if strip building frames only needed up to floor timbers. I might be off on the words, I'm at work and plans are at home. I'll check tonight.

The plans were redrawn and so differ from Garden's description. does anyone have a copy of 30 Wooden Boats? I am curious to hear what the study plans for Eel have to say, if they address this issue at all. Thoughts on stripping and frames?

I have the book, but the drawings are all for the carvel plan with frames on 8" centers.

Strippers with thick hulls....like 5/4"...and cabins can use the bulkheads as structural framing, but your boat looks lighter. Frames on 16" centers running from keel to shear to intersect with the deck beams makes more sense to me.

Contact the designer to be sure. I certainly wouldn't either guess or lighten anything structural without proper engineering of any changes.

Don't take ill-advised shortcuts in materials, either. Investing a thousand hours and a couple thousand+ bucks in an unsound structure or a boat that can't be repaired when the time comes doesn't pass the common sense test...but it happens regularly by those shaving dollars and/or thinking they know something they don't.

[ 09-29-2005, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Y Bar Ranch]

Thanks for checking, Bob. I plan on doing exactly what the plans say. I'm just not exactly sure what the plans say. :(

If someone was to happen to scan in and email the pages from the book, they could be emailed to may106ATpsu.edu. I'm just sayin'.

[JimConlin]

A humble suggestion:

A couple of years ago, i seriously considered building an Eel (another long story), but was troubled by the rudder design. I was concerned that a hard grounding would likely bend the rudder stock and make it hard to withdraw through the trunk. A bad scene. A wise and well-informed friend suggested another rudder design- a New Haven sharpie rudder with end-plates. It could have less draft than the keel and, because of the end plates, still be effective. This design has been used on a number of Bolger boats. Can anybody find some drawings/photos?

Just wanted to plant an idea for an improvement.

Jim

[garland reese]

I think there was an Austrailian builder of an Eel that did do just that type of rudder modification. The rudder configuration has bothered me as well, though Eel is one of my favorite designs.

Do check in with Robert Albers. I think he can offer you some good guidance. He is a very nice fellow.

[Y Bar Ranch]

I've been wondering about the rudder. What holds it in an aft position when lowered? Water pressure? Is it free to move fore and aft in the slot otherwise? Not clear yet.

There's one spot where I'm not sure if WG wrote an "a" or a "2", as the plans are a bit smudged. Makes a difference whether it is "a 1/2 inch lam" or "2 1/2 inch lam". tongue.gif

I've spent a couple of weeks of steady staring at the plans, and things are starting to become cohesive in my noggin. Struggling to understand how strips will meet the stem, as I don't see a rabbet line on the stem/sternpost/keel. I'll figure it out.

My garage floor is not flat or level, so I'm pondering a frame to make a flat and level to build her on.

Lofting begins in a week or two.

[Dave Fleming]

I don't have 30 Wooden Boats but, I do have his design books.
Eel is the first boat shown in book #1 entitled Yacht Designs, copyright by Intl. Marine Pub, 1977.

Eel is number hull 597 with 2 sheets of drawings.
Unfortunately the book shows only sheet #1 with no date shown.

Perhaps if you can be a bit more specific about that number question I can fugger it out IF it relates to sheet #1.

The rudder shown on sheet #1 is a 5/16ths inch plate of a particular shape. There is a statement, 'check with template to retract thru trunk'. I am assuming( dangerous word that ), the rudder is made to be removable from the hull for beaching or trailering.

[Keith Wilson]

There are two kinds of strip construction - old style (pre-epoxy) with no sheathing, and new style, generally with epoxy-fiberglass sheathing inside and out. With old-style strip planking the strips were generally edge-nailed and glued together, and there were frames, sometimes lots of them, to give cross-grain strength. With fiberglass sheathing, the frames aren't needed for tensile strength across the grain of the planking and are often eliminated. Bulkheads are generally enough to hold the hull in its proper shape, and if I'm not mistaken Eel has a harpin, right? (a large member inboard along the sheerline, sort of like an overgrown beam shelf for the East Coast guys) which will make it even stiffer. Perhaps the apparent contradiction in the plans is because he's talking about sheathed and unsheathed strip planking. If you will be fiberglassing the inside of the hull, the frames will have to go in afterwards, anyway.

I'm sure William Garden can clear it up, although he's reputedly not the easiest guy to get in touch with.

[Y Bar Ranch]

The Eel plans sold by WoodenBoat, and shown in the 30 Wooden boats book, have been redrawn from William Garden's originals. WG said no frames were necessary if strip building, while the new plans show frames, but only 16" centers instead of 8" for carvel. Also, the new plans come with 5 (or is it six?) sheets.

The place where I am confused on "a" versus "2" is in the stem. He shows a 2" wide stem, that I believe is beveled to accept the strips, and then that is all flattened and one more lamination (of width 2 1/2", if I am reading it correctly) is placed over it. But there is also something about a 5/8" oval strip that I think sits on top of all that.

The design does have a harpin (which is a term not defined or mentioned in Chapelle, Davidson, or a bunch of other books...head scratching ensued) and the suggested build approach is to make the harpin, mount in on sawhorses as per the sheer heights, and build the molds onto that. It says 3/4" plywood, but not what kind. So i'm pondering that one.

I hope building my Eel will be half as fun as thinking about it.

[Dave Fleming]

HARPIN, in a Garden Schooner.

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL780/3097474/6299287/80939531.jpg

Sheet #1, shows the statement 1/2 inch stem face, stem sided 2 inch.

Also from the FAQ....

Harpin Discussion (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006515)

Note: my photo albums have moved to PictureTrail.

[ 09-30-2005, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Dick Wynne]

Any thoughts why the main yard on Eel is so long? Looks like a liability when the sail is lowered, especially with the mizzen mast being stayed. Are you expected to disengage the jaws from the mast and run it forward?

[garland reese]

Robert Albers built, and sailed and Eel called "Glory" for a while. His Eel was cold molded. He did some slight modification of the rig to eliminate that trouble with the yard on the main.

He used the original rudder design. I like the idea of a bolgeresque type rudder.

Mr. Albers also installed an electric auxillary.

He did a fine job of building the Eel design.

[Y Bar Ranch]

In a couple of spots on my plans, it refers to what appears to be laminations of my keel and apron as "lifts". Is this a standard term?

I think I have the stem situation worked out. There are not rabbet lines on the plans. I will laminate the stem as per the plans, then bevel the outside face to accept the strip planking, then fair this square, the put the last lamination over top and fair it to a 1/2" face. Finally, I glass over the hull and put a 5/8" half oval strip along the stem as the finishing stroke. So I'm making a rabbet rather than cutting one.

[Dave Fleming]

In a couple of spots on my plans, it refers to what appears to be laminations of my keel and apron as "lifts". Is this a standard term?In a word yes.

It refers the the way the laminations are laid up, ie; horizontal vs vertical.

[Y Bar Ranch]

In reference to a number of stays are the iniitals "S. S.", which I assume means stainless steel?

[Popeye]

the 316 stainless steel has more molybdenum than the 304; 316L stainless steel indicates less carbon, which also reduces the possibility of corrosion

19-1 ?

[ 10-04-2005, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[RandyColker]

Eel is a beautiful boat. I've spent many a night fantasizing building one. It's a safer fantasy than some others. Some day I will build one when I get the room.
In the September/October WB Launchings section there is an Eel built by an Aussie, Roger Dahlberg, with a "fixed, winged shoal-draft" rudder. This intrigued me, so I wrote to him, but never heard anything back. Roger, if you see this, maybe you could join in on the rudder discussion.

[Y Bar Ranch]

Is that the latest Woodenboat? I'll have to give it a gander...didn't buy it.

Spoke with the Schooner Boatworks folks. They gave me some good pointers and getting her built. Getting the garage set up right now. The garage floor's not flat, so I need to build a level frame to to build the boat on.

[RandyColker]

Sorry, I left out that the year was 2001.

[garland reese]

I had a short bit of email correspondence with Mr. Dahlberg, back when he'd built his eel. He loves the little boat, and holds her up to be very capable for her size. He said the rudder came out nicely......that is the boat that I'd remembered to have been modified to use a different rudder. I don't have the references for Mr. Dahlberg....I'm sorry Y bar. I should have kept all that stuff :rolleyes:

Did you hear from Mr. Albers?