Removing Fastenings

[gary porter]

Ok, whats the most all time favorite way to remove old boat nails in the most
non-destructive way. These aren't very large nails, 1-1/4 planks 1-1/4 frames/ribs,
but there are a lot of them, something like 47 frames counting the stern and 19 planks
each side. Its not a problem on planks that I'll be replacing but on others I'd like to pull
the nails and replace with Silicon bronze screws. I won't need to replace all of them ,
probably as above the waterline looks pretty good except for some butt joints that I'd like
to relocate. I have read some of the older posts but would appreciate any help in making
up my mind and to formulate a plan of attack.
Thanks
Gary......

[Mr. Know It All]

A real small nail puller, no bigger than a screw driver, is the most non-distructive tool for removing nails that I know of. I only use it to start with, then switch to a thin prybar to spring the piece loose. I finish with a hammar and plyers to remove the nails. It's a fine art to make sure the heads of the nails don't pull through the wood if ya wanna reuse the piece. A little "wood in a can" for the mistakes and badda bing badda boom. :D

What kind of boat Gary? Got any Pic's?

[ 08-05-2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

[gary porter]

Thanks Mr. Know it All and Dave.
Did some close looking last night and think I have a plan except for the larger spikes
that are in the gunnels.

Originally posted by Mr. Know It All:
A real small nail puller, no bigger than a screw driver,

What kind of boat Gary? Got any Pic's?The boat is a 32' Gillnetter/Seiner Cannery boat originally owned by the Snug Harbor Cannery on the west coast of Cook Inlet. It was built by the American Commercial co. in Seattle in 1961 or 60. I'd like to find more info on them, the company, but haven't been able to. Our plan is to restore the boat and convert it to mostly pleasure , perhaps some trolling. It will get some new planks around the keel , refastened at least partially , a new deck and house. Its Yellow Cedar on Oak and may be on Red Oak. It has a Detroit 3-53 diesel which is supposed to be ok??
We now have the fly bridge, stabilizers, mast& cross tree and everything very high taken off for its trip to Fairbanks where it is now.

We got the boat because we went in to buy an anchor for our other boat and the guy said "hey I've got a boat for sale you should see" I said no, I have enough projects and my wife says,,,"It wont hurt to look" Well you know the rest of the story.

This is the boat as we got it and thats Deb, my wife who I blame for it.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p4cf7f7f2cd95394fd19bce2e8787362c/fb76a091.jpg

The boat in our yard in Fairbanks
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p0343430b53e5e2b4a1d850814b69ca5e/fb76a08c.jpg

There are a lot of these boats that need some help, like the Pearl sitting behind ours,
I truly enjoy working on them but can't save them all in fact one is probably enough.
Anyone else care to help??

Thanks again for the advice.
Gary..... :D

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obido s/tg/detail/-/B0000224UX/qid=1060198596/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-7323363-9156153?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000224UX/qid=1060198596/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-7323363-9156153?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013)

Here's an excellent nail puller.

Sometimes the cost of pulling one is too great, and it makes more sense to leave it.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000224UX.01.MZZZZZZZ.gif

[ 08-06-2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Ed Harrow]

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/assorted/69k0201s4.jpg

From Lee Valley. I've not used one so I can't comment. Also, not certain if it will reach in thru the countersink.

[ 08-06-2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Ed Harrow ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Very Cool boat. :D

[Donn]

:cool: Go in for an anchor and come out with a boat! :cool:

[gary porter]

Thanks Ed, Peter, & Bob
I think the biggest problem is as you said, Ed,
getting down to the nail without tearing up so much wood in the plank. I'm thinking of trying a pair of vise grips that have a long pointed nose and perhaps if I have to I'll make a very small hole saw to bore slightly around the nail then pull it and fill/glue it back with good material.
The bungs come out easy enough but the nail is set what looks like 1/4" down or more and some of course are deteriated as well. Majority are probably ok and could be left alone but I'd like to get as many as possible that might need it while I have it here,,,much easier now than later.
Gary

[gary porter]

Originally posted by Donn:
:cool: Go in for an anchor and come out with a boat! :cool: Well go ahead and laugh Donn, but I've got my eye on that Pearl that sat behind ours. That one is still fully equipped and though it does need more hull work than ours it could be a very nice boat.
I just can't figure out were to put it without paying $600 to $700 in yard fees every year.
We'll see though.
How about you Donn? need a project??
Gary.......
:D

[Donn]

Gary...a Dremel with a tiny carbide bit will give you easy access to the nailhead.

[Donn]

NO! No new boats for a while...and I have plenty of anchors. :D

[Bob Smalser]

Maybe I missed it, Gary, but I didn't see whether these nails were deeply set and bunged.

I'd think they'd just be sunk deep enuf to take putty on a work boat.

If so, the small 90-degree cat's paw gets tapped in just enuf to grab the head, then leverage does the rest. No plank damage that can't be puttied, in most cases.

And in this dry weather, it'll be relatively easy.

[Bill Berger]

Boy, I sure wish boats like that were available in the Great Lakes area.....*sigh*

Looks like a great project.

[Ron Williamson]

gary
if you use a wee catspaw,place a stiff putty knife between it and the plank as you lever out the nail(after you get it moving).This prevents any damage that won't be removed when drilling for the new fastenings and bungs.
R

[gary porter]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
Maybe I missed it, Gary, but I didn't see whether these nails were deeply set and bunged.

I'd think they'd just be sunk deep enuf to take putty on a work boat.

And in this dry weather, it'll be relatively easy.Bob, most of them that I've looked at so far are set fairly deep and are bunged. The bungs come out easy enough but I'm still having a bit of a problem getting behind or a hold of the nail head. It might be that I'm just being too fussy about the wood around it, I'll glue in new wood as Dave mentioned anyway.

Bill, look around there just might be one and if not, well, you could have one shipped to you on a lowboy. Some of the boats you can get for a little bit of nothing , some free.

Ron, I picked up another catspaw last night , the smallest one I could find. I think it will work fine one I get to the heads.
Thanks all.
Gary

[Mr. Know It All]

Donn's idea about the Dremel sounds good. The wood will swell around a countersunk nail or screw head and you have to dig to get access to the head. If you don't ream the hole before hand, you will loose a big chunk of wood removing the nail. I use a cone shaped drill bit to enlarge the hole slightly and give me access to the nail or screw.

Nice boat ya got there Gary and a partner who shares your interest is a good find too. :D

[Bill Berger]

Gary,

I am constantly looking around for one in this area. This style of boat is not very prevelant in these parts and most I have seen are just too far gone.

I am thinking that trucking one from your local may end up being cost prohibitive considering the "upgrade/ build" costs once it is being converted. I fear that the sum total of it all may make it just too costly to justify.

I am certainly open minded about it and would welcome any corrections to my thinking.....

Thanks again and good luck on your project. I am envious... smile.gif

[gapup]

Pulling boat nails? A method I have used and continue to develop is to drill and tap the head and pull it out with a slam hammer. I'm presently engaged in refitting a 50 ft former seiner and there are a fair number of nails that must be pulled for various reasons and this method has been very successful but it does require some care and attention to the direction - angle - of the fastener. Of course there has to be enuf left to the nail to enable it to be withdrawn.

A sharp center punch. No need to match drill angles. Keep the cone slim cuz the first step is a small pilot hole.

A pilot drill around a # 40 to a # 50. New and or in good condition. You'll break them so have spares on hand.

A # 29 tap drill for 8 - 32 machine screw.

8 -32 tap and T-handle.

Cutting fluid. Rapid Tap or equiv.

Slam hammer with an adapter to hold an 8 -32 machine screw or set screw. Use a lock nut on the machine screw to enable removal when it breaks and it will break eventually.

Always use a pilot hole. Always. It's impossible to prevent the larger drill from wandering without it.

Keep pilot hole aligned with axis of the nail. Depending the style of tap, a hole depth of 1/2 inch should be plenty. 5 or 6 full threads is generally sufficient to withstand the shock of the hammer.

Tap carefully. It will bottom quickly and if not careful the tap can be broken .......... in which case, ya got a whole new problem.

Keep the slam hammer aligned with nail as well. It will preserve the life of the screw. The nail will come easier as well.

With care and a bit of practice you can withdraw a boat nail in just few minutes but sharp tooling is essential.

[gapup]

Pulling boat nails? A method I have used and continue to develop is to drill and tap the head and pull it out with a slam hammer. I'm presently engaged in refitting a 50 ft former seiner and there are a fair number of nails that must be pulled for various reasons and this method has been very successful but it does require some care and attention to the direction - angle - of the fastener. Of course there has to be enuf left to the nail to enable it to be withdrawn.

A sharp center punch. No need to match drill angles. Keep the cone slim cuz the first step is a small pilot hole.

A pilot drill around a # 40 to a # 50. New and or in good condition. You'll break them so have spares on hand.

A # 29 tap drill for 8 - 32 machine screw.

8 -32 tap and T-handle.

Cutting fluid. Rapid Tap or equiv.

Slam hammer with an adapter to hold an 8 -32 machine screw or set screw. Use a lock nut on the machine screw to enable removal when it breaks and it will break eventually.

Always use a pilot hole. Always. It's impossible to prevent the larger drill from wandering without it.

Keep pilot hole aligned with axis of the nail. Depending the style of tap, a hole depth of 1/2 inch should be plenty. 5 or 6 full threads is generally sufficient to withstand the shock of the hammer.

Tap carefully. It will bottom quickly and if not careful the tap can be broken .......... in which case, ya got a whole new problem.

Keep the slam hammer aligned with nail as well. It will preserve the life of the screw. The nail will come easier as well.

With care and a bit of practice you can withdraw a boat nail in just few minutes but sharp tooling is essential.

[bret]

Hey Gary,
Looks really similar to a boat I bought in Port Townsend a few years ago. Mine had been at the boat haven a year or so and, according to the yard foreman, one night the owners stripped everything of value out of it and split town. After another year or so of hogging out on blocks (the boat was slowly sinking around the keel; I thought it was some really curvy building style.OOps) along came Bret to the WoodenBoat Show Auction with $75.00 in hand. At this point in my life I don't wonder what I was thinking, because I now know that I wasn't thinking. After a month or two the realization of what I had done turned me into quite an effective pitch man and I was able to convince a younger, more energetic, equally blind fellow that his dream was greater than mine and he could make it happen. Net loss = $75.00. Glad to see your boat is in more of a salvagable state. I believe one of the nail pullers mentioned (screw driver sized) is used more for furniture upholstery. Basically a screw drive handle with the tool end looking like a 3/4" wide flat blade. The blade is bent about 30 degrees and has a notch for the nail shaft. Should be found at most hardware store for a couple bucks. The method I use when pulling nails for furniture repair goes like this. Use an old chisle you no longer love to cut a small diamond around the nail head in towards the nail shaft. I try to cut clearance for a small pair of side nips that I use to pull the nail.

Keep us posted on the progress. Wanna trade wives?

[Mr. Know It All]

Oh yeah Bret, I have an old chipped pair of side nippers that works good for working the nail up enough to grab the head with something bigger.

I also find that my mental state affects my ability to pull nails. The best times are right after your football team looses or doing your own taxes. :D

[redsail]

Hi Gary
Admiring your new boat , the anchor is conspicious by it's absence.
Good luck with your project.
John Porter

[redsail]

Hi Gary
Admiring your new boat , the anchor is conspicious by it's absence.
Good luck with your project.
John Porter

[gary porter]

Originally posted by Bill Berger:
Gary,

I am constantly looking around for one in this area. This style of boat is not very prevelant in these parts and most I have seen are just too far gone.

I am thinking that trucking one from your local may end up being cost prohibitive considering the "upgrade/ build" costs once it is being converted. I fear that the sum total of it all may make it just too costly to justify.

I am certainly open minded about it and would welcome any corrections to my thinking.....

Thanks again and good luck on your project. I am envious... smile.gif Bill, I have no corrections to your thinking other than one shouldn't try to justify this type of project as ,well, you can't. I could try but there will always be arguments against it.
I've always loved the old wooden boats much to my friends dissmay and would like to save more of them. This is one that I intend to do so with and thats about it.
I did do some sanding on it this weekend and was very happy to see some very nice looking yellow cedar under the old cracked paint. Keep looking Bill, you might get together with some other like minded folks to have one shipped over. Good Luck.

gapup, thanks for the info, I think that would work on the larger nails but might be a bit of a problem on the smaller ones which most are. I will give it a try though and see. Your 50 footer might have bigger nails. Sounds like your into a good project as well, any pics??

Bret, Thanks but no thanks , I'll keep this wife, she is very supportive to my activities even if they are cost prohibitive. Love Port Townsend. There are several hulls like this around, American Commercial built this one but theres another company who I can't quite remember there who built some that are very similar, I think it was Bryant. No hogging in this one, seems good and strong. Lucky for Me.

Jonh ,,,thanks,, I'll order the next anchor, just kidding, This boat came with several.

Gary........having fun.............. :D