Homemade gaff topsail materials

[bott]

Hello again,
Some background again: the boat is a 32’ gaff cutter, about 20,000# with roughly 750-850 sq ft of sail right now, pole masted. I want to make a large jackyard topsail (in the same spirit as the Carr’s Curlew) of about 150-170 sq ft to replace the 90 sq ft Cornish topsail original to the boat to get some more sail area up aloft for the light summer winds around here. I expect to be flying this sail a fair bit, I am not interested in having it be a gimmicky once-a-season regatta sail.

There are basically four options I see for materials, each with cost benefits and performance drawbacks:


1) I have a good roll of mainsail/staysail-weight Dacron already on the boat to make it out of. But I fear it may be too heavy cloth to be useful (or not, I don’t really know what the bad part of using a possibly too heavy cloth aloft)

2) Nylon. It seems good and cheap, but also stretchy and possibly not appropriate for the application at all. But as far as buying cloth new, the price seems nice.

3) Buy a used sail and recut it for a topsail. I imagine the sail cut will be dead flat anyhow (maybe a little hollow in the leech), and the luff and foot will be mostly supported by yards, so this may be a decent option.

4) Go out and buy the proper weight Dacron. Spendy, but if that’s the only real way to get a proper sail out of this endeavor, that’s what it’ll be.


So, what do you see as the best option? This will be my first sail I’ve made (though I’ll have help from more experienced people). If you think its reasonable that my first sail will be a “trial sail” then nylon seems a good option, then the next one will be the “real one” which can have major material investment… or if it reasonable to expect an amateur to make a quality, useful sail on the first go, I want to use the material that will perform well and last long (while still being reasonable with price).


Anyhow, please discuss. Thanks.

[andrewe]

1, buy the Sailmakers Apprentice by Marino . Best guide for making sails.
2, Use it to answer most of your questions.
3, I don't think Nylon.
4, As a complete novice, I made my own sails from the above. And got complemented on the cut of my jib.
Nuf said.
A

NB, I have no experience of top-sails, but I expect the info to be in the book.

[bott]

I do have Marino's book, though am looking for more specific advice than I could find in there, specifically about nylon as a reaching sailcloth for light to med-light airs and the downsides of too-heavy cloth in a topsail. Maybe I need another read through...

[PeterSibley]

I'm going to follow this with interest .A good thread !

[John B]

Why would you use nylon. The hardest part of setting a topsail properly is getting it to work on the wind.. making it out of nylon means you've given up that idea before you've even started. I could see that if you were planning a quiver of topsails that maybe you could have one specialised nylon reacher , but for a general sail? Nup.
The sailcloth weight is the weight that your boat needs for the wind strength that you'll use it in( a sailmaker would advise on that), you definitely don't want heavy cloth. You'll probably carry it to about 15-17 flaking it off depending on the ability of your boat to handle sail.. say call it a 0 to 12-14 knot sail.
I'd never dream of making my own sails personally but I guess that in one respect, that you need the thing nearly flat as a board, that would make the job a bit easier for an amateur.Getting the actual plan form isn't easy though, I had mine recut a couple of times before I was reasonably happy. This is mainly because of the variation in the peak angle for different wind conditions and objectives. Getting the profile of the piece of cheese so that it neither leaves a big gap to the gaff nor is too big ( which ruins the set of the main) is the objective. Generally it requires a trip up the stick when the main is set for lightish conditions.

[FSS172]

The hardest part of setting a topsail properly is getting it to work on the wind.. Gaff topsails work on the wind? Going upwind Roger Duncan used to call the gaff top on Eastward 'the turbulator' :)

[John B]

Turbo charger more like.:D

But not if you make em out of nylon or cut them anything but flat.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/waione/c11043.jpg
I always hated that foot overlap and cut some of that out one year, but we used to carry it well to windward with everything that was out there apart from exotic sailcloth on modern racers.We could flake it off up to about 20kts ,but after that it got a bit hairy.

[Jase]

we cut Jessies a bit too large so not as much adjustment on the sheet as I would like, on the plus side we carried it up to about 20knots of wind going to windward on the way back from mahurangi and it pulled like a ......:D,

http://www.classicyacht.org.nz/forum/attachments/imgp1064.jpg

[bott]

Oh man, I devoured the Jessie Logan thread on the NZ Classics forum with fervor. That the one sexy boat you got there, good on you for the vigilant restoration!

Just so we are not dealing with ambiguous words like "heavy" and "light", what are the weights of cloth you are using for Jessie's and Waione's topsails (if you recall)?

[Thad]

Don't know the weight of our topsail cloth but you do want flat. John says nearly flat, but I'd say flat. Spars have to be stiff enough (this for the yard and club, or jackyard, topsail) to keep the sail evenly supported to the leach.

[McKee]

We have three, two of which I cut. I didn't expect the original sail, which was made by San Juan Canvas in Friday Harbor to fit the new rig but it does. I'd guess that the one that San Juan made for us is probably out of 6 oz cloth, and is cut nearly flat, with the luff straight, and the foot and leaches both with moderate hollow. While I worked at the local loft I made a light air sail with that requires a yard (~4 oz), and a hvy air sail that had neither yard out of 7 oz cloth. Someday I'll cut a nylon lug topsail for the hell of it, I've got the spare cloth laying around somewhere.

[huisjen]

I'm about to say something heretical.

Does anybody ever consider making a beta version sail out of something cheap, just to test the concept? I'm thinking that rather than making a flat cut genoa (for a home built roller furling system) by chopping up a perfectly good sail, I'm going to use some white Poly-tarp (which is much heavier than the blue and also looks the part from any distance) to sew up my own. I'll do my best to sew in all the appropriate reinforcements, some sort of bolt rope, and webbing (former seat belts) around the clew cringle. I think it will be strong enough, although it wouldn't last for years and years of constant cruising.

The Sailmaker's Apprentice actually has some positive comments about poly-tarp sails for experimentation and getting on the water quickly. (page 151)

Dan

[McKee]

I have never mocked up a sail, but I did get to spend some time working in a loft. I'd say go for it, especially if your not quite sure what you want the final measurements to be. How are you putting shape into the sail, just edge cutting, broad seaming, or both?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I can't answer the question until I know what your yard and jackyard are going to be made from. That's a big topsail.

[bott]

I have never mocked up a sail, but I did get to spend some time working in a loft. I'd say go for it, especially if your not quite sure what you want the final measurements to be. How are you putting shape into the sail, just edge cutting, broad seaming, or both?

I was planning on simply adding maybe the littlest bit of shape with edge cutting, and a little hollow in the leech. This sail will most likely be 2/3 to 3/4 sparred on the foot and luff with the jackyard and luff yard.

My main question is, what are the drawbacks with making a ~160 sq ft jackyard topsail with 8 or 9 oz cloth, when it seems like 4 would be more appropriate? But, like I said, I have a glut of heavy stuff, and it may work out in the cost/benefit analysis at the end of the day... maybe.

ps- Ben, you know this is Eric The Beard, right?

[bott]

I can't answer the question until I know what your yard and jackyard are going to be made from. That's a big topsail.

I am planning on making the luff yard from solid laminated Douglas fir (center seam with countering grain, bookmatched?). For the jackyard maybe fir, but a nice piece of spruce would be good. Maybe recycling a loom from an old, broken sweep.

Does that help?

edit: but I am more than willing to take suggestions on the best materials/methods for this. My original answer is based off of what the Carrs have done with Curlew's similar topsail arrangement.

[McKee]

Yep I know it you Eric. I would defiantly not use 8 or 9 oz cloth that way to heavy for your boat. 6 or 7 oz would be good.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I am planning on making the luff yard from solid laminated Douglas fir (center seam with countering grain, bookmatched?). For the jackyard maybe fir, but a nice piece of spruce would be good. Maybe recycling a loom from an old, broken sweep.

Does that help?

edit: but I am more than willing to take suggestions on the best materials/methods for this. My original answer is based off of what the Carrs have done with Curlew's similar topsail arrangement.

My boat has the same displacement as yours (but the only good pictures I have of her with the jackyard topsail are old fashioned prints, and I can't reproduce them well enough here). The spars are a pine stick for the luff yard and a light spruce one for the jackyard.

I hate the luff yard with a passion. The jackyard does not bother me. If I were to do it again I would use carbon fibre. In reality I am lengthening the mast as I have concluded that I don't set the topsail as often as I should, mainly due to the battles with the luff yard, and if I had a jib header I would use it far more often.

My topsail is made of the same material as the reaching staysail: 5.5oz.

Hope this helps.

[McKee]

Andrew what's the trouble with the luff yard?

I know I mess up when I set mine the first 3 time every season, but then it no problem.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes, I do that too ;) - but other than that, size and weight. It verges on the dangerous, getting it on end on deck.

[McKee]

Your jack yard must be bigger than mine (can I say that and still seam manly?). I think the yard is around 10 feet w/ maybe 1 3/4" diameter. We lay the entire mess in the lazy jack/topping lifts when its mellow. Its a pain to pull it out of the lazy jacks when its blowing a bit.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Luff yard is 17ft; jack yard is 8ft. Luff yard ought really to be 20ft.

[bott]

Luff yard is 17ft; jack yard is 8ft. Luff yard ought really to be 20ft.

A 20 ft luff spar is basically the same size that I worked out with the new, large topsail as well...

You are strongly recommending a carbon spar? or maybe aluminum?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I have two problems with my luff spar.

The lesser of two weevils is that it bends, thereby making a mess of the sail.

The greater is that it tends to take charge when I am setting or to a lesser extent striking the topsail.

I dare say John B and/or Jase know better than I what to do with it.

The topsail on its spars is in the blue sausage bag secured to the port swifter:

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/MirelleinOrwell2003.jpg?t=1245882084

[bott]

I dare say John B and/or Jase know better than I what to do with it.

Are you using the "Curlew system" (controlling the spar heel with the halyard through a fairlead on the mast and and heel)? I think both JohnB and Jase swear by it... and one less string to bugger up aloft.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes; John put me on to that one some years ago,

Better, but it's still a swine.

Mind you, I am either actually or effectively singlehanded.

[McKee]

Thats what you mean by the Curlew system. I run a jackline/leader to control the heel of the spar. Bott given the dimensions of you yard to be I'd either find myself some spruce (or something with similier characteristics) or go carbon.

Thats a big stick.

[John B]

My yard is an old hollow dinghy mast of about 6.5 metres I was given a few years ago. 21 ft or so. It has a luff groove moulded into it but I forget how much it weighs . It never bent too badly and when it did , it served to flatten the sail and as we've discussed .. flat is good in topsail language. What you want is a flat sail for on the wind and you just crack the sheet a bit for off the wind power.For on the wind or round the cans I set mine up so the peak halyard goes a little bit slack.

Bott, add lightness. No matter what you do with a wooden rig , it'll still be heavy by other standards so you need to develop a philosophy of always taking the lighter option aloft( within reason). Heavy cloth up there is a pain.

These are the topsail rules that I would apply doing it again.

It lives on the boom. Mine does and its been a perfect way of shorthanding a sail like that.

It lives on the stbd side of the boom so you're on stbd setting and dropping. Mine is on port .. I learnt the stbd wrinkle here ( Andrew?)

It lives on the boom with the lines attached most or all of the time.Have them tied forward out of the way when not in use.
The zen of the topsail, the problems that go along with ' the first three sets every season' (man,do I agree with that) are all caused around the running of the halyard and sheet, (and tack line to a lesser degree).

Yes , we used the curlew system and its been good.

Topsail on chocks on the boom.. best thing I ever did.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/waione/103-0375_IMG.jpg

awwww. isn't she cute.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes, starboard was me. Only reason mine's not on the boom is that I use roller reefing.

As John says, light as you possibly can get it.

By the way, a windsurfer mast is not the perfect answer as its too bendy, DAMHIKT.

[andrewe]

Andrew, Keyhavenpotterer found some standard carbon tubes and bound them with kevlar for his spars on the lug rig. Might be worth asking him for his source. IIRR near him on the Solent.
A