Do boat designers ever actually go out in their creations

[jonboy]

Just got back from a Sint Maarten - Flores, Açores 19 day trans - atlantic and would I like to meet the designer!! Choose your weapon, pal....A lovely sea worthy 40ft cutter, all the kit, but was it just meant to ponce about in marinas??? a rear stay tensioner that is a 3'' boss protruding into the cockpit just about level with mid spine..., bad enough trying to sit at the wheel let alone being slung against it in serious weather, no grab handles in the heads...try laying a cable at 30º in a force 6 with nothing to hang on to...beautifully gimballed Force 10 cooker with pointy knobs, my upper thighs black and blue from being slammed against them,, polished worktops, why not make them from that black rubber mat stores depts have on their counters, and why not gimble everything in the galley for that matter. it would avoid the sink water from emptying over the counter and into the below work surface fridge...Foresail winches where the handle fouls the rails, main sheet and boom traveller winch where the winch handle fouls the traveller blocks... and this is a good one. what I thought were nifty locker catches... a 30mm hole in the door with a little catch inside you pull towards you to open... what happens in a heel or just a tack? something falls against the catch, door or drawer front opens, stuff all over the place, and its the stuff you don't want flying about ...laptop, camera, crockery ..I could go on but gripe over..and this was a 250k ocean going job...And I never caught a bleedin' thing in 19 days except a small storm petrel who then spent a day recovering before departing , and I did get hit on the back of the head at 3 in the morning by a flying fish. bet not many blokes down the pub can say that!

[Ian McColgin]

Almost all of these flaws are not uncommon results of how the manufactorer or the finishing yard did things rather than specified details of the NA. So often the NA is silent on these matters or showed a different set of options.

On a good used boat I try to allow a year of use before making any major changes in winch placement and accomodation details, but some things are really obvious and especially on a new boat I have no inhibitions about giving a new owner a list of corrections.

I have a friend who got a boat with an intrusive back-stay adjuster so I "accidentally" bumped him such that he bounced off it and got the point.

Bad winch layout is a not-uncommon issue that again can be revealed just by trying the things.

Grab rails below are essential but are also really an owner's responsibility especially before going off-shore.

I disagree about gimbeling a sink. I much preferr a unitized SS sink and surrounding surface with a splash rim of adequate height that everything stays drainable to the sink.

Other buggaboos I have that are often wrong, especially if you're going off-shore, include hatch integrity (ever think how the typical sort of V shaped companion makes for hatchboards that will easily float free?), battery hold-downs, and all that other stuff that goes nuts if you take a knock-down - can happen to anyone - or worse yet a full roll-over.

I've not taken on a delivery without at least a week to go over and correct stuff like this. I'm sure if the NA were prepping the boat for a crossing, he or she would have done the same.

[James McMullen]

All right then, who's the designer? What's the design? Sounds like the details weren't thought out for bluewater. A winch handle that fouls anything is an absolute abomination.

[Hwyl]

Did you have a hook on the fishing line?

What did you think of Peter Cafe Sport.

Yes I've seen all that stuff. You should have sailed a Swan (still not perfect, but for the good ones the designers brother was in the factory)

[jonboy]

I wasn't going to say for fear of litigation or another smack round the chops with a flying fish, but I will say this..winch handles on lewmar winches in two lengths and the shorter length didn't foul but was serious hard work and I am no weakling. The builder is a well known and very well respected Dutch outfit known for blue water builds, the boat was steel AAAAGH!!!! sorry every one but that's not relevant anyway and general standard was absolutely excellent just a few but critical complaints which would really be rectified under the '...if it was my boat...' category, which it isn't....' but surely should be not needing rectifying in the first place hence the thread title.

[jonboy]

Now, the hook, is that one of those bent silvery things with a point?? looked a bit cruel so I didn't bother.
Stopped at Flores, didn't go to Faial/Horta, but been to Peter's before.
Flores was small, quiet, maybe ten yachts but brilliant, any info wanted let me know as the Atlantic Islands book though good was out of date for Flores.

[rbgarr]

I was at the helm one night and the other crew member on deck got hit by a flying fish. She screamed, then we both laughed. Saved the fish for breakfast. Not bad.

[mmd]

Yup.

Sometimes builders even build 'em the way I designed 'em, too.

[Charles Burgess]

It might have been poor/lacking design or the builder didn't stick to the plans and specifications - or both. This generally happens when the builder (whom-ever that may be) skips buying the whole set of plans and just "wings it" from the study plans (which never include enough details to build from). Building from study plans is like trying to write a best seller cook book using store bought meals listing only their ingredients to recreate the recipes.

In regard to the rigging and deck hardware layout: the plans show only where to begin placement. The initial placement is only the beginning, as there will be a lot of tweaking of placement of the rigging as it is completed and tested. The builder is supposed to do some some sea trails of the new vessel before final delivery to ensure everything is shipshape. The same goes for repairs and overhauls.

Do I sail my own designs? Yes, I do - although not all of them. Most of my design work is generally variations of already well done themes - mostly worked and proven out by my fore-bearers of the craft and art of NA ...there is nothing really new under the sun in this family business.

[peter radclyffe]

Just got back from a Sint Maarten - Flores, Açores 19 day trans - atlantic and would I like to meet the designer!! Choose your weapon, pal....A lovely sea worthy 40ft cutter, all the kit, but was it just meant to ponce about in marinas??? a rear stay tensioner that is a 3'' boss protruding into the cockpit just about level with mid spine..., bad enough trying to sit at the wheel let alone being slung against it in serious weather, no grab handles in the heads...try laying a cable at 30º in a force 6 with nothing to hang on to...beautifully gimballed Force 10 cooker with pointy knobs, my upper thighs black and blue from being slammed against them,, polished worktops, why not make them from that black rubber mat stores depts have on their counters, and why not gimble everything in the galley for that matter. it would avoid the sink water from emptying over the counter and into the below work surface fridge...Foresail winches where the handle fouls the rails, main sheet and boom traveller winch where the winch handle fouls the traveller blocks... and this is a good one. what I thought were nifty locker catches... a 30mm hole in the door with a little catch inside you pull towards you to open... what happens in a heel or just a tack? something falls against the catch, door or drawer front opens, stuff all over the place, and its the stuff you don't want flying about ...laptop, camera, crockery ..I could go on but gripe over..and this was a 250k ocean going job...And I never caught a bleedin' thing in 19 days except a small storm petrel who then spent a day recovering before departing , and I did get hit on the back of the head at 3 in the morning by a flying fish. bet not many blokes down the pub can say that!t

good for you mate, for telling it how it is, instead of the endless cosmetic hype, glossy mag bs, the industry standard media junkie p r job, tie the pr team, who all grow up in houses, on the fore deck and take em out to sea, theyll tell the truth then, tell us more

[2MeterTroll]

some do and those i like, most dont and those i detest.

seen some really bloody ugly stuff in the work boat world specified by designers and installed with them standing round watching and patting them selves on the back.
at sea these things turned into death traps.

IMO the larger the build the less the designer knows how it works or even cares. the hull and the pretty bits are all.

build it and make the designer live with it for a year cause paper and reality are not the same.

[donald branscom]

Just got back from a Sint Maarten - Flores, Açores 19 day trans - atlantic and would I like to meet the designer!! Choose your weapon, pal....A lovely sea worthy 40ft cutter, all the kit, but was it just meant to ponce about in marinas??? a rear stay tensioner that is a 3'' boss protruding into the cockpit just about level with mid spine..., bad enough trying to sit at the wheel let alone being slung against it in serious weather, no grab handles in the heads...try laying a cable at 30º in a force 6 with nothing to hang on to...beautifully gimballed Force 10 cooker with pointy knobs, my upper thighs black and blue from being slammed against them,, polished worktops, why not make them from that black rubber mat stores depts have on their counters, and why not gimble everything in the galley for that matter. it would avoid the sink water from emptying over the counter and into the below work surface fridge...Foresail winches where the handle fouls the rails, main sheet and boom traveller winch where the winch handle fouls the traveller blocks... and this is a good one. what I thought were nifty locker catches... a 30mm hole in the door with a little catch inside you pull towards you to open... what happens in a heel or just a tack? something falls against the catch, door or drawer front opens, stuff all over the place, and its the stuff you don't want flying about ...laptop, camera, crockery ..I could go on but gripe over..and this was a 250k ocean going job...And I never caught a bleedin' thing in 19 days except a small storm petrel who then spent a day recovering before departing , and I did get hit on the back of the head at 3 in the morning by a flying fish. bet not many blokes down the pub can say that!

Lots of things on boats do not work very well that is why you must think for yourself.

Forget the polished wood floors and the traditional chart table layout.
Make sure ALL cabinets have latches and no deck lockers are open to the inside of the boat.

Just make things that work - NOT what traditional boat designs show.

But if a boat has crossed the ocean many times I WOULD LOOK at that boat carefully.

I agree with IAN that you should imagine the boat upside down,and ask yourself will it hold when it is upside down.

[Charles Burgess]

[...snipped...]

build it and make the designer live with it for a year cause paper and reality are not the same.

It takes some experience in genuine sailing seamanship to be good at designing one, the same goes for boats in general. In my mind I functionally examine every detail in six degrees of motion to ensure that each detail performs as intended under all conditions. With clients it is common for me to strenuously debate against features he or she desires when I know from experience that they will regret it later - I keep at it long enough for either they drop the feature or find another designer.

[kenjamin]

Mr. Burgess,

Please check your private messages for "something new under the sun". It may not work, but I can promise you it's new.

kenjamin

[mmd]

"With clients it is common for me to strenuously debate against features he or she desires when I know from experience that they will regret it later - I keep at it long enough for either they drop the feature or find another designer." - C. Burgess

Been there, done that, lost the contracts. Good on ya, Charles.

I alienated a number of my colleagues at the last design office I was employed at by mentioning that I believed that one shouldn't be allowed to call onesself a Naval Architect until you had at least a year of documented sea time in the type and size of vessel that you intended to make your design career in. The three NA's standing around me, whose combined sea time might have totalled a week, took great umbrage at that. The draftsman standing beside me, a rope-and-canvas guy whom had circumnavigated under both sail and power, didn't help by laughing out loud at their protests.

My bad, I guess.

[2MeterTroll]

It takes some experience in genuine sailing seamanship to be good at designing one, the same goes for boats in general. In my mind I functionally examine every detail in six degrees of motion to ensure that each detail performs as intended under all conditions. With clients it is common for me to strenuously debate against features he or she desires when I know from experience that they will regret it later - I keep at it long enough for either they drop the feature or find another designer.

I am usually at the other end of it. in a couple jobs i have held I have had to insist on simplicity and things that experiance has shown over the years need to be in the design; while the NA has insisted on new wizbang stuff. usually the NA quits or takes it to a VP thats never been to sea.

then in about a year of sailing i was the guy who was ripping the wizbang out of the boat and trying to get it reconfigured to workable.

tends to make me a touch hostile to NA's of any stripe. the folks i tend to work with now days have been dealing with fishermen and as fishermen for long enough that they start with basic and only add something if its been proven. they also will take a boat design a skipper has doodled on a knapkin and give it the consideration it deserves instead of just tossing it in the trash. years of being out in it every day in all weather can lead to design just as surely as 4 years of math.

diffrence is that the changes a fishermen is likely to make are modest in scope; helping the design evolve. the NA with no sea time tends to get radical.

[2MeterTroll]

Been there, done that, lost the contracts. Good on ya, Charles.

I alienated a number of my colleagues at the last design office I was employed at by mentioning that I believed that one shouldn't be allowed to call onesself a Naval Architect until you had at least a year of documented sea time in the type and size of vessel that you intended to make your design career in. The three NA's standing around me, whose combined sea time might have totalled a week, took great umbrage at that. The draftsman standing beside me, a rope-and-canvas guy whom had circumnavigated under both sail and power, didn't help by laughing out loud at their protests.

My bad, I guess.

only in that you wanted to keep your job :)
I congratulate you on the moxy that took MMD.

[mmd]

2MT, by that time I had decided to leave. About a month later I started MMD Inc.

[john welsford]

Two points, there are indeed NAs who sail the boats that they design, and they feature fairly frequently in the boating media but they tend to be raceboat designers or like I am working in the small boat field rather than the stock boat producers. You can research and choose one who does boats that you like and go that way.
The other point is that most stock boat builders will only pay for a set of lines , general arrangment and basic structure, they figure that between their marketing department and their own fitout specialists that they can do the rest. I'm involved right now in a fight with a company wanting to do just that and I suspect that I wont get the job.

JohnWelsford


Just got back from a Sint Maarten - Flores, Açores 19 day trans - atlantic and would I like to meet the designer!! Choose your weapon, pal....A lovely sea worthy 40ft cutter, all the kit, but was it just meant to ponce about in marinas??? a rear stay tensioner that is a 3'' boss protruding into the cockpit just about level with mid spine..., bad enough trying to sit at the wheel let alone being slung against it in serious weather, no grab handles in the heads...try laying a cable at 30º in a force 6 with nothing to hang on to...beautifully gimballed Force 10 cooker with pointy knobs, my upper thighs black and blue from being slammed against them,, polished worktops, why not make them from that black rubber mat stores depts have on their counters, and why not gimble everything in the galley for that matter. it would avoid the sink water from emptying over the counter and into the below work surface fridge...Foresail winches where the handle fouls the rails, main sheet and boom traveller winch where the winch handle fouls the traveller blocks... and this is a good one. what I thought were nifty locker catches... a 30mm hole in the door with a little catch inside you pull towards you to open... what happens in a heel or just a tack? something falls against the catch, door or drawer front opens, stuff all over the place, and its the stuff you don't want flying about ...laptop, camera, crockery ..I could go on but gripe over..and this was a 250k ocean going job...And I never caught a bleedin' thing in 19 days except a small storm petrel who then spent a day recovering before departing , and I did get hit on the back of the head at 3 in the morning by a flying fish. bet not many blokes down the pub can say that!

[TR]

To build on what's been stated above....

I know of no successful independent yacht designer who does not have extensive sea time.....some of it certainly in his/her own creations. Also the successful designer will have sea time aboard designs by others as well.

But I suspect from the original comments this was a stock production yacht? There are a few scenarios possible there...and none of them are very promising for yacht designers.

As John mentions above....The manufacturers advertise their products as being "designed by .......(famous race boat guy)". Actually famous race boat guy was given a displacement, length, beam, and draft, and drew some hull lines and appendages to fit, plus basic rig dimensions and mast location....that's it...he or she has no further input and quietly collects their royalty cheque.

Or the "design" might be credited to the owner of the company. It's actually done by the R&D department, which may have a guy who knows how to draw...or they may not. Usually these are the prototype guys...they build a one off...sail it...if it sorta works that's good...build more!

Or the product development department employs no yacht designer, rather they have an industrial designer...a stylist...and an engineer. The boat's that come from these collaborations are usually a mess. Competition and margins are so tight (management tells us) there is no money for royalties to a real yacht designer.

A really frustrating factor in modern (current) production design is that management listens mostly to sales people and their results from "focus groups"!!!! Ack! These folks mean well, but they usually come up with lists of incompatible features. The designer goes away and does his best....then the managers and builder get busy and "fix" all the designer's "mistakes".

Don't lay all responsibility on the poor designer...he's only one of those who have input...and his may be a tiny part......

[Willin']

"and I did get hit on the back of the head at 3 in the morning by a flying fish."

Sorry for your pain/ shock/ surprise, but it could have been worse. I left a companionway weatherboard out for a week once while anchored at Catalina Island, CA.

When we rowed back out to the boat on a rolly swell next weekend my wife opened up the companionway and poked her head in and promptly redecorated the whole galley. A flying fish had flown through the opening sometime that week and fermented in the summer heat. Not a good way to start a day sail.

[John B]

"and I did get hit on the back of the head at 3 in the morning by a flying fish."

Sorry for your pain/ shock/ surprise, but it could have been worse. I left a companionway weatherboard out for a week once while anchored at Catalina Island, CA.

When we rowed back out to the boat on a rolly swell next weekend my wife opened up the companionway and poked her head in and promptly redecorated the whole galley. A flying fish had flown through the opening sometime that week and fermented in the summer heat. Not a good way to start a day sail.

dang , thats the second cup of coffee gone today.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Phil Bolger used to sail a LOT of his designs.
I remember Peter Duff writing of his Dovekie something to the effect of sailing the baot one season before undertaking any odifications (akin to what Ian said above).

Dovekie's simplicity seemed to INVITE owner modification, despite Bolger's serious attempt at designing a "rowing/sailing curuser" suitable for two, and nothing more.

I sailed mine for 12 years, and changed ery little. I found the boat to be a very good tutor in the paractice of "seamanship".

Modifications I did make were really my own fabrications of Edey & Duff "running improvements" in an attempt to gain the advantages without the expense of purchasing E&D's modification kits; two of import being a bow centerboard and more commodius cockpit seating, as my boat was built prior to either of those ideas for production boats.

The successor to my Dovekie is an Edey & Duff Shearwater. It came to me as third owner and was cock-a-block with glitchy little hardwre problems, such as blocks that couldn't swivel. It took almost a year to get these irksome details straightened out. Ironically, none of these details reflected the designer's work; they were all "dreaded prior owner" (DPO) things.

Moby Nick

[Charles Burgess]

Mr. Burgess,

Please check your private messages for "something new under the sun". It may not work, but I can promise you it's new.

kenjamin

The methods I use in design work comes right out of the 19th century...used by Edward Burgess, Nat Herreshoff (which is why he was so secretive - being a MIT grad), and maybe Starling as well. The basics of the method comes from da Vinci and his colleagues, who drew inspiration from Pythagoras. Then I use "modern" methods to validate the design mathematically. That is what I meant by nothing new under the sun - or another quote that rings true for me in regard to naval architecture (although the author had another topic in mind): Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs.

I am haunted by waters. - Norman Maclean As a NA, I draw knowledge and inspiration from all who have gone down to the sea in ships before me. Those who are successful in coming back from the sea, did so due to seamanship and a well designed vessel; and those who did not return, either from faulty seamanship or vessel design (or both), too have lessons for us as well.

[peter radclyffe]

To build on what's been stated above....

I know of no successful independent yacht designer who does not have extensive sea time.....some of it certainly in his/her own creations. Also the successful designer will have sea time aboard designs by others as well.

But I suspect from the original comments this was a stock production yacht? There are a few scenarios possible there...and none of them are very promising for yacht designers.

As John mentions above....The manufacturers advertise their products as being "designed by .......(famous race boat guy)". Actually famous race boat guy was given a displacement, length, beam, and draft, and drew some hull lines and appendages to fit, plus basic rig dimensions and mast location....that's it...he or she has no further input and quietly collects their royalty cheque.

Or the "design" might be credited to the owner of the company. It's actually done by the R&D department, which may have a guy who knows how to draw...or they may not. Usually these are the prototype guys...they build a one off...sail it...if it sorta works that's good...build more!

Or the product development department employs no yacht designer, rather they have an industrial designer...a stylist...and an engineer. The boat's that come from these collaborations are usually a mess. Competition and margins are so tight (management tells us) there is no money for royalties to a real yacht designer.

A really frustrating factor in modern (current) production design is that management listens mostly to sales people and their results from "focus groups"!!!! Ack! These folks mean well, but they usually come up with lists of incompatible features. The designer goes away and does his best....then the managers and builder get busy and "fix" all the designer's "mistakes".

Don't lay all responsibility on the poor designer...he's only one of those who have input...and his may be a tiny part......
you are so lucky to have sound, responsible na,s, a good designer is invaluable, i had to correct and modify 80 per cent of all the designs on lulworth, patience, and iduna while the designers were busy telling the ski slopes how the world couldn,t revolve without them

[alkorn]

It is not only important that naval architects have sailed the boats they design, but that they have some experience building boats using the techniques they specify.

Too often, a boatbuilder looks at the plans and asks, "How in the @%&~ am I expected to build that?"

One reason, I suspect, that boatyards only want the lines, arrangement, sail plan, and scantlings from NA's is that they want to work out the construction details for themselves in a way they are comfortable with.

[Charles Burgess]

Been there, done that, lost the contracts. Good on ya, Charles.

I alienated a number of my colleagues at the last design office I was employed at by mentioning that I believed that one shouldn't be allowed to call onesself a Naval Architect until you had at least a year of documented sea time in the type and size of vessel that you intended to make your design career in. The three NA's standing around me, whose combined sea time might have totalled a week, took great umbrage at that. The draftsman standing beside me, a rope-and-canvas guy whom had circumnavigated under both sail and power, didn't help by laughing out loud at their protests.

My bad, I guess.

MMD...you demonstrate the necessary independence of mind, and the ability to speak it, that is the hallmark of a genuine NA. All the other "yes-men" are just wanna-be's.

Personally, I try to log 200 hours a year in sailing time on the water.

[Charles Burgess]

It is not only important that naval architects have sailed the boats they design, but that they have some experience building boats using the techniques they specify.

Too often, a boatbuilder looks at the plans and asks, "How in the @%&~ am I expected to build that?"

One reason, I suspect, that boatyards only want the lines, arrangement, sail plan, and scantlings from NA's is that they want to work out the construction details for themselves in a way they are comfortable with.

Very too indeed. Especially for the builders of non-wooden boats. I make it a point to keep involved in building wooden boats, and I am teaching my sons the same way...they are now building (and repairing) boats before I teach them how to design them.

[Mad Scientist]

jonboy,

Did you send your comments to the yard/company that built the boat? They 'should' welcome feedback, including the negative stuff.

Tom

[Hwyl]

Most of the boats I've sailed have fit their compromises fairly well. The glaring exception being Beebe's long range round bottom trawler. May he be compelled to everlastingly be condemned to one of those dangerous monstrosities.

[john welsford]

Being honest, if I am designing for a competent boatbuilder I put in a lot less detail than in plans which I expect to sell a number of to beginners. The latter has screw sizes, location and spacing, details of what shape to make seat edges, radius of rounding on stringers and on and on. A relatively small boat may have 20 sheets A1 plus 25 pages of written info and if I were to charge full hours for a one off for all that the price would darn near equal the cost of building the boat. Not so bad when stretched over 50 sets of plans though and the detail saves me a lot of time answering questions from people who just dont know any better. But I expect a "boatbuilder" to have a body of knowlege upon which I can draw, and which I dont expect to have to teach, so the same boat, designed for a professional builder might only have four of five sheets of drawings and the same of print. It does leave a lot to the builder, but one should be able to rely on professional knowlege.
Another point is that of the people who give me grief when building from my stock plans, complete beginners give me the least, but boatbuilders rate high on the list. There is a strong preference to build the way that they are accustomed to and if thats different to the way that I do it they often build themselves into a corner.
The relationship between the two trades is often a fraught one.

JohnWelsford

It is not only important that naval architects have sailed the boats they design, but that they have some experience building boats using the techniques they specify.

Too often, a boatbuilder looks at the plans and asks, "How in the @%&~ am I expected to build that?"

One reason, I suspect, that boatyards only want the lines, arrangement, sail plan, and scantlings from NA's is that they want to work out the construction details for themselves in a way they are comfortable with.

[paladin]

When my friend Ed and I started the boatbuilding operation in Thailand, we purchased only complete sets of plans. In addition to my 31 foot Searunner, we were building a 37 footer for another fellow, and had started a Horstman design for another. Both gentlemen had very detailed plans for their craft, and I insisted that we not deviate from the plans one iota without the designers consent. Half way through the Horstman project, the owner wanted us to make some serious changes....I was extremely reluctant to do so, so I typed up a release detailng the work that he wanted us to change, and he was authorizing, and at the same time release us from any responsibility for adverse effects...he was pretty incensed over it, and pulled the product from the yard....took it next door to Boon Wongs yard. Jim Brown designed in AB exterior grade plywood, inch dimensions....I asked for and received permission to use true marine quality plywood but in metric dimensions, the size just under the inch spec.....once we removed the staples and other metal fasteners, and used epoxy instead of weldwood glue, our boat came out weighing several hundred pounds less than the estimated amateur built weight. The Horstman design sat on her fully loaded waterline when launched she was so overbuilt. The 37 and the 31 could sail circles around the 42 Horstman.....

[jonboy]

jonboy,

Did you send your comments to the yard/company that built the boat? They 'should' welcome feedback, including the negative stuff.

Tom


I didn't and probably won't for loads of reasons, mainly I am humbled by the honesty of the other contributors to this thread though it doesn't essentially change my feelings, and after all it's not just this boat that has the problems ; but I am very aware of, on the one hand, the 'if this was my boat' sentiment and on the the other, the boat is twenty years and at least two previous owners old, and though a double circumnavigator and this recent trans-at, can I really blame the designer of probably thirty years ago for today's faults. If they haven't been addressed by now it doesn't let him off the hook but I can't here give him the right to reply. Some things can't easily be changed though, with the best intention of a new owner, and perhaps that does come back to original design...... The skipper didn't seem too bothered about the things that niggled me, after all.
I will say this ... some respondents did perhaps miss my point, ( and forget blame here in any quarter ) getting out on the wet stuff is the proving ground, and designers can't say 'once it's off the drawing board I can't be held responsible for what the builder/owner does' if it's fundamentally a flaw no matter how small in the first place ..go and sail it even if it doesn't vaguely resemble your plan, because you will see what the idiot managed to do to mess up your bright idea.
Still, the thread was a wake up call and I think it worked

[TimH]

http://nyyc.org/gui/nyyc1/news/Dorade-crewLow_res.jpg

[mmd]

jonboy, maybe you miss our (us designers that visit here) point: Once the design is off our drawing board and in the hands of the builders, there is usually precious little we can do if they alter the design. Such conversation go something like this:

Designer: Excuse me, but you didn't build this the way I designed it. The seat backs were supposed to be sloped at ten degrees for sitting comfort."

Builder: Yeah, I know. I changed that.

Designer: Why?

Builder: It was easier to build that way.

Designer: But it will make it uncomfortable for anyone sitting in that seat.

Builder: Tough titty. It's done now.

Unless we draw up a build contract that imposes penalties for deviation from the plans - which would make the design a pariah among potential buyers and builders - we have no say in what happens to our babies once they are grown up and out the door. No denying that designers occasionally make errors (Did I really say that?), and ergonomic ones seem to be the most common, but in my personal experience many more are perpetrated by the builder.

[Captain Blight]

Jonboy,

Perhaps you could send them an e-mail with a link to this thread? At least then they'd know that experienced, respected designers and bluewater cruisers are saying something here, and it's not the nonsense they probably get from inexperienced mariners.

[2MeterTroll]

jonboy, maybe you miss our (us designers that visit here) point: Once the design is off our drawing board and in the hands of the builders, there is usually precious little we can do if they alter the design. Such conversation go something like this:

Designer: Excuse me, but you didn't build this the way I designed it. The seat backs were supposed to be sloped at ten degrees for sitting comfort."

Builder: Yeah, I know. I changed that.

Designer: Why?

Builder: It was easier to build that way.

Designer: But it will make it uncomfortable for anyone sitting in that seat.

Builder: Tough titty. It's done now.

Unless we draw up a build contract that imposes penalties for deviation from the plans - which would make the design a pariah among potential buyers and builders - we have no say in what happens to our babies once they are grown up and out the door. No denying that designers occasionally make errors (Did I really say that?), and ergonomic ones seem to be the most common, but in my personal experience many more are perpetrated by the builder.

I would agree with that MMD. i also think that if the designers had more time not only at sea but in the boat shop things could be streamlined a bit.

I love working with designers that build as well as sailing there designs. the sea time and shop time saves me time. i hated trying to do phone interviews several times a day and risking misunderstandings in the build, it always cost me production time better spent.

Thanks for being candid all you designers; its not easy to be amongst builders that are sometimes a touch critical. tho i dare say the the exchange has been mutually en lighting.

[Dan McCosh]

Olin Stephens and his brother worked in the Nevins yard in high school. He designed and built Dorade and he and his brother sailed it in the trans-Atlantic race. They invented a ventilation box that was named after the boat. When I met him when he was 99 years old, at a regatta he was sailing in, he was still looking at how he could do some things better. His brother Rod once described to me a new-fangled mast step that I installed, and it works great.