Your Opinion Please

[Mike123]

I want to build a boat.
Originally my thoughts were:

Saltwater fishing
Open boat
Sail for power
Traditional design and construction
Inexpensive
I’ve looked into the dory, but have since have realized that I will sail more often than fish, so a better behaving boat seems to be in order.

Cost is my main limiting factor, but I’d rather plank than glue plywood.

Here are more criteria:
¨ Use it for salt water fishing (probably not more than 1 mile offshore)
§ Enough stability so 2 people can stand up while fishing
¨ Powered by sail
¨ Open boat
¨ Inexpensive <$1500 in materials, but high quality construction
§ Solid wood
¨ 16-20 foot long
¨ Trailer able
¨ I like the ‘traditional’, although I’m not a purist. I particular desire solid construction that will last for years.
¨ Used on New England and South Carolina coasts. Perhaps Florida someday?
¨ I'll take the family out, but in protected waters only.


If you have a suggestion for a particular design my next questions would be
¨ Cost of wood?
¨ Total cost?
¨ Time to build?
¨ Where can I get plans?

[Thorne]

I want to build a boat.
(snip)
Inexpensive <$1500 in materials, but high quality construction
§ Solid wood (snip)


Cheap but High Quality???? The entire boat, sails and all for $1500? You'll have to buy a serious fixer-upper and restore. No way to build new for that amount.

[Mike123]

Well that is certainly what I didn't want to hear. :(

I suppose sails can be bought at a later date.

[donald branscom]

You won't like this answer either.
If it was me I would just go out on a commercial fishing charter for the day and come back with a pocket full of money and a couple nice fish.

A mile out in the ocean? Thats serious territory.
Being in a open boat-no way. You need to protect yourself from the sun
and if a wave hits your boat you would be instantly swamped and in trouble immediately. Forget that nonsense.

NO ONE can help you out there.
Lets see....Fishing license,ice,food,parking ,radio life vest,hat,
trailer for the boat, WHOOPS-already exceeded the budget!

[TerryLL]

You can get a lot of boat for the buck with any number of Bay Skiff designs. Some are flat bottomed, or flat forward and veed in the aft sections. The one below is Carl Stambaugh's Windward 17, which is designed for plywood. Other very similar Bay Skiff designs for solid wood construction can be found in Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft. But $1500 for materials is unrealistic.

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/windward17.jpg


WINDWARD 17

Specifications:
Length: 17'-0"
Beam: 5'-0"
Draft: 1'-3 bd up
Draft: 2'-6" bd dn
Weight: 280 lbs
Sail Area: 106 sf Gaff
120 sf Sloop

http://www.cmdboats.com/index.htm

[TerryLL]

A mile out in the ocean? Thats serious territory.
Being in a open boat-no way. You need to protect yourself from the sun
and if a wave hits your boat you would be instantly swamped and in trouble immediately. Forget that nonsense.

NO ONE can help you out there.


Donald, Donald. Donald.

What is all this alarmist nonsense? For people who live and work on the salt, a mile or more offshore in an open boat is an everyday occurence, done with perfect confidence, and with no sense of danger or impending tragedy.

New boaters of course need to build their skills and proceed with caution, but a decent boat suited to the conditions and handled with a modicum of common sense is certainly in no more danger a mile out than it would be 100 yards out.

[G.Sherman]

Ever see "The Old Man and the Sea"?

1. Boat- Well under $1500.00:eek:
2. Definitely out 1 mile or more…;)
3. Good fishing!:o

[SScoville]

Bay River Skiff - http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/brs.htm (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/brs.htm)

It is stitch n' glue - which it sounds like you don't want. But other than that and the costs - probably $3,500 minimum - I think pretty close to your requirements.

I'm building the 17' - http://brs-pelican.blogspot.com/

Be sure to check this out before you write it off - http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/BeachCruisingBaja.pdf

Where in S.C.?

[jclays]

A mile out in the ocean? Thats serious territory.
Being in a open boat-no way. You need to protect yourself from the sun
and if a wave hits your boat you would be instantly swamped and in trouble immediately. Forget that nonsense.

NO ONE can help you out there.

As long as you know what you are doing you'll be fine always wear your PFD. I regularly take my Kayaks both a sit on top and also a sit inside up to 6-7 miles off shore here is So Cal. Lots of us fish that way. Bring a VHF radio and a gps. Watch the weather.

[PeterSibley]

You can do it .

Don't think like a boater from 2009 , think like an inshore fisherman from 1909.Forget , epoxy , fancy marine ply ,silicon bronze fastenings .
Think wood , bolts galv nails and house paint .If you're in the country , find a local sawmill .

Sails later , very cheap on Ebay and just fine for your use .

Buy a VERY good PDF with your savings and a little vhf radio .

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Rule #1
Whatever money you put into the hull you will put a like amount into the sails and rigging.

Rule #2
A good quality rotomolded plastic sea kayak cost about $1000. What makes you think you can build a seagoing sailboat for $1500?

[kenjamin]

In decent weather I wouldn't hesitate about going out a mile or so in my 20' Caledonia Yawl to fish but she cost more like $8000 to build. That's the reality of it and I still haven't bought my GPS and fish finder electronics. But she's one heck of a boat.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Xena078.jpg

[S B]

Mile offshore, not that far, you could drown in a back yard swiming pool. My advice,if it's worth anything, go with the old stuff and stay away from flat bottoms. Invest in a decent set of oars,learn to row and keep the idea of sailing to assist you when the wind is right. If you have to row home you wont be as inclined to venture into dangerous territory. Good luck.

[RodB]

Your budget is not realistic ... Why not spend some time to narrow down the criteria for a proposed design to build... but choose a design that will meet your needs for quite a while...and compute the cost of such a craft being amortized over several years.

If you choose a craft that provides several years of versatile use in addition to offering a large load of fun in the building process... how can you lose.

There are many designs that meet your criteria... some at the following site for example...

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/


Several designs exist that call for ply construction such as the Corey Sound series from B&B Yacht Design... and several sharpies from Parker Marine or CMD design.... There are scores of designs that would meet your needs... have fun trying to narrow it down to one.

For example...

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Highlanders.htm

Good luck,

RodB

[2MeterTroll]

boyo look around for wood you can use.

shipping crates for motor cycles used to be made of mahogany, look for stuff like that.

Make your own kit there are tons of things you can make yourself sails, blocks, cleats &c.

mile from shore is not too hard just learn a bit in the shallows first.

going a mile out while its a breeze in a power boat is a bit different in a sail boat sometimes you got to work for it. remember that when the wind dies you get to row.

but dont let folks scare you off just think like Peter said... old time. this boat if its your first wont last long at any rate cause you will make errors. dont worry we all do or we dont learn. do it the hard way take your time and learn all the stuff you need to learn. save your money for the next boat. just dont be stupid about safety gear; get a GPS, PFD, VHF, good survival kit, and survival suit. spend the money on the good stuff not the crappy joes junk. practice getting into that survival suit till you slip in and out like a greased eel.

[The Bigfella]

Well, here's the boat I learnt to sail on as a kid. We regularly took it more than a mile offshore, never once wore a PFD while sailing it, fits the bill as far as two people standing up and fishing off it - provided you rigged it so you could drop the sails and tie the boom up out of the way - and if you tried real hard you could build it for $1500 - provided you used second hand fittings and rig.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/iansecond/kittykatsmall.jpg

That photo of her is on flat water on the Swan River, but she lived in Coffs Harbour and our offshore races were often held in conditions where you could only spot other boats when you were on top of the swells. We would sail several miles offshore and for miles up the coast around the Solitary Islands.

[Mike123]

Thank you for shining your light on my project. It's helped to illuminate some of the issues I'll surely face.

kenjamin-Nice boat! I'd like something like that. Could you provide a basic cost layout? I really don't see where the money is...


PeterSibley said, "Think like a fisherman from 1909 and forget epoxy, marine ply, and silicon bronze fastenings". You read my mind! That's exactly my approach.

And I know lumber yards in the area have pine & oak...

[SaltyD from BC]

Just one comment on fishing from a purely sail powered boat. I have tryed it and find it about the most frustrating experience going. To get to a spot no problem but to manipulate speed, direction be able to stop and stay put etc. is a gong show under sail alone. You can troll somewhat, albeit way too fast under most conditions. ..

[TerryLL]

I agree with Salty D about the difficulty of fishing from a sail boat and trying to maneuver under sail. But fishing a light and responsive boat with oars is a pure joy. No noise from that outboard, no fumes, no danger of snagging the lower unit close to shore. Not the easiest way to troll, but great for fishing the rock piles and lilly pads.

[Rigadog]

When I was about 8 years old I sailed one of these a mile or so off the beach in Rhode Island with another kid. A sub surfaced near us and scared the crap out of us

http://www.canadiandesignresource.ca/officialgallery/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/SunfishSailboat.jpg

I don't know what was wrong with parents in those days...

You could build one out of wood, maybe even stretch it. If you flip, no big deal to get right again.

[David Geiss]

How about two Grumman canoes properly lashed to nice beefy akas?
Interlibrary borrow Bishop Museum's Sailing Canoes of Oceania....enough ideas in there for a few lifetimes. A lot of what you will find there are proas, but not exclusively.

Small outboard to get back to a lee shore.
You could adapt any number of rigs and find second hand sails at any good sail loft. Think bamboo for spars, except for mast which could be of lumber yard fir built up any number of ways. Leeboards on each canoe hull and what ever tramp or platform arrangement makes sense for your application. One aspect deserving serious thought would be placement of mast step, fortification of same and standing rigging considerations. You could step two masts one in the belly of each canoe having appropriately braced mast thwarts as well. Twin tyvek crab clue rigs, wing on wing before the wind?

Wait this is a wooden boat site...better use use wood for the akas and the whole rig, cleats included. Floatation still pretty good idea if you are venturing into blue water......PFD goes w/o saying, and some judgment thrown in.
Could also put a bailer in each hull, the type that mounts flush and can be opened on the fly (forgot the brand name)
Cover the ends with sunbrella decks (grommets to gunwales or some such) for keeping some water out and tidy appearance.
You'll be within your budget but you'll have a funny looking vessel.

I would stick to recognized parameters for the total beam. I'm sure that varying the max beam, for two canoes of a given equal length, will have a huge impact on how she sails. You might not nail it first time around but given the cost and decidedly low tech approach, you re configure until you find something that sails half decent.
A little off track perhpas, but this will get you considering what could be possible:
http://proafile.com/view/weblog/entries/C11

Dave

[kenjamin]

Xena's money is in materials. She has a laminated full length mahogany keel. The daggerboard box is offset so the keel runs straight through and elevates the daggerboard slot from bottom or whatever you happen to drag her on. Two men can easily slide her off a beach (Or one strong man if he wants it bad enough). 3/8" 7-ply sapelle mahogany ply for the garboards is very tough stuff and very expensive. Higher planks are Okume cored ply with sapelle outer veneers. There is quite a bit of bronze fasteners used in her building plus a lot of stainless steel in the interior bits and pieces. Sitka spruce from Canada was shipped down for the mast. Longitudinal laminated fir stringers support a bamboo aft seat, rod holders, drink racks, and flotation. 1/2" Lexan was used in the waterproof hatch which seals the port for the outboard lower unit midship. She steers with the rudder under power with the 4 HP Yamaha contently purring midship so very little noise and no vibration on the tiller. She carries four Shaw and Teeney oars and has two rowing stations with heavy-duty bronze Davis-type oarlocks.She has one 5' Shaw and Teeney paddle. It's amazing how well Xena paddles from the mizzen step which can also function as a seat. She can sneek up on feeding redfish with that paddle. Lots of black boat fenders promise to keep her floating above the sharks.:D Xena has over-sized rudder hardware and white oak foils. The daggerboard passes through a cartidge that provides a friction fix position for the daggerboard but will slip if you hit anything with it. She has mostly Harken hardware with all controls going to a command center in front of the aft seat. She carries two good anchors and lots of line. She could have been built cheaper but I like her the way she is. I will take good care of her and I think she will do the same for me.

[Boston]

When I was about 8 years old I sailed one of these a mile or so off the beach in Rhode Island with another kid. A sub surfaced near us and scared the crap out of us

http://www.canadiandesignresource.ca/officialgallery/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/SunfishSailboat.jpg

I don't know what was wrong with parents in those days...


lots of folks mentioned crazy stuff and Im guilty myself
grew up on the cape and we spend all summer sailing everywhere in boats that had no right to be more than a few hundred feet off shore
was a miracle we survived
hell coast guard brought us back sometimes if we forgot the life vests

check out some of Ted Brewers designs
he has some nice stuff that might just work although Kens picture of his yawl is about the perfect boat for what your after
as long as you keep your hook out of the rigging

Nice boat Ken

thing is whatever you do
if your not all that used to the water take it easy first season or two
I been stuck inland for a while how and am itching to get back to the water
but not so fast that I forget how dangerous it can be
be careful and have a great time
B

[Captain Blight]

Redefine "sail" to include "Kite" and all sorts of designs become available and even attractive.

[James McMullen]

open boat. . . . . .if a wave hits your boat you would be instantly swamped and in trouble immediately


B-b-b-b-bull sh!t! Not if you're in a properly shaped and competently handled open boat! I regularly make crossings of more than four miles through substantial tide and wind generated waves without shipping a drop.

I will say that a flat-bottomed skiff is not really the best seaboat if you want to be out in the rough water--choose a peapod or a swampscott dory or best of all a shetland yole like mine or Kenjamin's and you will have little problem with any ordinary waves.

$1500 is not realistic. If you were to double it. . . it's still probably not realistic. . . .

[TerryLL]

B-b-b-b-bull sh!t! Not if you're in a properly shaped and competently handled open boat! I regularly make crossings of more than four miles through substantial tide and wind generated waves without shipping a drop.


James,
It amazes me some of the hairball notions folks cough up as boating advice. I suspect a basic lack of boating experience is at the root of these ill-informed warnings. Fact is, boating several miles out, in a boat suited to the conditions, and competently handled, is infinitely safer than driving the family sedan to the supermarket.

Any chance of getting a short sail on Rowan at the PT Festival?

[adampet]

Just remember that a mile off shore is only about 15 minutes worth of rowing. It's something I do routinely around here. A dory can handle that easily, as can a whitehall. CLC's new kit dory looks easily as capable as you could want. At $1200.00 it's within range. http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/rowboats/CLC-NE-DORY.html
Think about a Swampscot from Gardners Dory Book

Adam

[2MeterTroll]

Just one comment on fishing from a purely sail powered boat. I have tryed it and find it about the most frustrating experience going. To get to a spot no problem but to manipulate speed, direction be able to stop and stay put etc. is a gong show under sail alone. You can troll somewhat, albeit way too fast under most conditions. ..

depends on the rig imo
some are just hard to handle.
the junk, gaff and a few others are made for fishing and you can let them do the work while you do the fishing. want to go slow reef it in. two or three panels on a junk rig work pretty well and except for keeping the tiller you pretty much dont do anything with the sail.

[James McMullen]

Terry, you bet! I'll take you for a ride for sure. Here's a pic of a properly shaped and competently handled open boat coming into last year's Port Townsend Wooden Boat show right after the four mile crossing from Keystone:
http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/22418/2420138370088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2420138370088484686SXncWh)

[kenjamin]

Quick story about seaworthiness:

When I was about thirteen or fourteen I had rowed my 13' 6" dory/skiff over to Couch Island at the inlet to St. Augustine and Matanzas Bay. Coming back I got caught in a huge and very mean thunderstorm. It got so dark so fast it was unbelieveable. It rained so hard that there was near zero visibility. The water was so confused that sometimes I would stoke the oars and on one side or the other there was no water there to pull against – just air. My little skiff was lightly loaded with pretty much just me in the boat and it moved freely with the wild chop that seemed to be coming from all directions. Besides being tossed about so much that I could hardly row, I had lost track of which way home was. I was very scared and I really thought I was going to die. The little skiff was reacting so quickly to the confused seas that she wasn't shipping much water other the sides but the rain was coming down so hard that it threatened to flood the boat just with rain water or so it seemed. My mother had sent my brother to get me and he was standing on the beach yelling for me and I heard his voice and began the hit and miss rowing towards his voice. I remember thinking when he helped me drag the boat up that "darn it!" now I guess I've got to like him now that he saved my life.

That little skiff could really take a mean chop with no problem. The real problem that day was not the seaworthiness of the boat. It was the fact that the captain had no compass and had no idea which way was home.

I spent many many happy years fishing with my cousin in that little skiff and on nice days we would take it out in the Atlantic and tie up to a buoy and try to catch sharks or mackerel, of course never telling any of our parents. When I think about all the adventures we had in that little skiff later with it's ten horse Johnson outboard, it's just amazing we lived through it all. In all my years on the water it was never the boat that got me in trouble, it was always my own stupid mistakes and not having the right equipment at hand to fix something. The most scared I've ever been has always been in other people's big heavy fiberglass boats in rough seas with engine trouble.

For me to feel safe in a boat the boat has got to be small enough to control with what strength I can muster on a small scale. Xena is no pleasure to row but she will if I ask her to. And when I'm out in her I feel like I'm in a Viking battleship compared to that little skiff that taught me so much.

[Charles Burgess]

Just one comment on fishing from a purely sail powered boat. I have tryed it and find it about the most frustrating experience going. To get to a spot no problem but to manipulate speed, direction be able to stop and stay put etc. is a gong show under sail alone. You can troll somewhat, albeit way too fast under most conditions. ..

Drop sail and put out your sea anchor off your bow.

A traditional rig would make fishing from a sailboat much more enjoyable. With modern rigging what you gain in windward performance you lose more in flexibility - where traditional workboat rigging shines.

[Charles Burgess]

I'm in the very early stages of a design iteration spiral that sounds a lot like the specs of the original post in this thread.

The client wants to do some simple day sailing a few miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico; a simple traditional design that can be car topped (on a pickup or suv) or trailered; can be rowed when necessary; a centerboard for windward work; large enough for 2 to 4 people and gear.

I am drawing as my inspiration the very traditional Yole fishing boat (could be the early predecessor of the dory) used for many generations among the Shetland Islands off the northeastern coast of Scotland. It would look somewhat like the Caledonia Yawl that kenjamin has shown above.

Right now it looks like about 18 to 20 ft LOA, and by using common lumber it could be built for around $1500 US (or so) for the basic hull and mast. If I take some 2x12 flat sawn SYP and resaw it to 3/16" thick (the resulting timber will then be quarter sawn - much cheaper than using marine plywood); using double diagonal planking with an outer layer planked fore-n-aft, bonded with West Systems epoxy; a thin outer fiberglass cloth/epoxy sheathing; traditional BLO finishing on the inner hull. For the mast I could used hollow/laminated douglas fir or spruce (spruce might bump up the price a little but would be worth it). Keeping the interior fittings very basic and simple will keep costs down, and you can enhance these later as future mini-projects.

Sails (not included in the price) do not need to be the typical modern type. Traditional sails made from light canvas (painter's drop cloths can be used) would work well enough. You can sew the sails yourself...get a book on marlinespike seamanship (you might find some videos too) - and have some fun doing it all yourself.

The end result would be a very seaworthy, traditional looking and handling, sail boat with workboat charm.

[TerryLL]

Terry, you bet! I'll take you for a ride for sure. Here's a pic of a properly shaped and competently handled open boat coming into last year's Port Townsend Wooden Boat show right after the four mile crossing from Keystone:
http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/22418/2420138370088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2420138370088484686SXncWh)

Woohoo! Thanks!

[davebrown]

terryl's windward 17 advice is excellent. i have often marvelled out just how seaworthy a skiff--and in this case even better for the little deadrise it has--really can be when you've gone out on enough trips to encounter most of what is out there. i am not talking about hurricane survival of course. the ww17 is an awful lot of boat for the money, when in the hands of an experienced operator. you could use exterior ply on it and fiberglass the hull... quick, dirty, probably looks good only up to 30 ft., but your budget is your main enemy. there are some folk on the forum here who could probably do the mast and boom under that budget as well, but adding a set of sails, even used, is going to quickly burn those numbers up...we have probably all read tales of sailors rowing from the east coast to norway or similar in open boats--they weren't skiffs, but still, it bespeaks an awful lot about the crew. my vote is the windward 17.

[donald branscom]

Donald, Donald. Donald.

What is all this alarmist nonsense? For people who live and work on the salt, a mile or more offshore in an open boat is an everyday occurence, done with perfect confidence, and with no sense of danger or impending tragedy.

New boaters of course need to build their skills and proceed with caution, but a decent boat suited to the conditions and handled with a modicum of common sense is certainly in no more danger a mile out than it would be 100 yards out.

Yes men go fishing more than a mile out with a 22 ft. open boat - BUT they have engines that cost MORE than $1500 dollars! so when they see bad weather coming they can hitail it back to shore. They also have a good radio or cell phone.

[Charles Burgess]

Yes men go fishing more than a mile out with a 22 ft. open boat - BUT they have engines that cost MORE than $1500 dollars! so when they see bad weather coming they can hitail it back to shore. They also have a good radio or cell phone.

I would not hesitate to go a few miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico in a Light Gloucester Dory (Phil Bolger) that is enlarged a little to allow two rowers. A simple mast and sail could easily be added, along with a centerboard. Other than sail or oar, no engine is needed or desired.

This is mostly an issue of personal confidence and level of seamanship.

[Charles Burgess]

Ever see "The Old Man and the Sea"?

1. Boat- Well under $1500.00:eek:
2. Definitely out 1 mile or more…;)
3. Good fishing!:o

My kids think that "old man" is me...LOL

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

This is mostly an issue of personal confidence and level of seamanship.

And if you are one step below the required level you can die.
Here on Lake Erie exhibitions of nautical ignorance are legendary. Most of those stricken were full of confidence. I won't bother you with the details.

[kenjamin]

In looking at the start of this thread, it’s interesting to note that the dory design was pushed aside by the author as being more for oar and not enough of a performer for sail. After seeing the John Harris designed Northeasterner Dory be rowed and sailed in the Chesapeake Light Craft promotional videos, I can’t help but be impressed with what a great first boat and first build it would be. For one thing Harris got the size right. It's big enough for two to row and light enough for two to carry. For the budget mentioned it would be difficult to get more boat for less money even if you bought the kit rather than building from scratch with the $99 plans. The plans, by the way, even include full sized patterns for the planks. No, I don’t get a commission from CLC or profit in any way from the sale of their boats. The one area in which the boat fails miserably in the original design brief is that it is stitch and glue and not traditionally built as preferred by the author of the thread. Oh well, I guess a boat that is strong, very light, can easily row three people and can be built in two weeks with quality materials and minimal tools for under $1500 is not for everybody. A sailing rig could be added later when the next $1000 comes along or better still you could buy a Sailrite kit and sew your own sails. How much do you guys think it would cost to build the CLC dory from the $99 plans using Okume ply to meet the designed weight of 100 lbs. and would the stock Sailrite sprit sail for the Iain Oughtred's 18' 3" John Dory work well with the 17' CLC Northeaster Dory (avoiding the custom design fee)? This is the kind of stuff I wonder about.

The other thing is if you built a 17' dory traditionally, how much would all the traditional tools cost to do the build? About how long would it take to build it traditionally? How much would good quality timber cost for the build? Ideally, what would it weigh when you're done?

[2MeterTroll]

Yes men go fishing more than a mile out with a 22 ft. open boat - BUT they have engines that cost MORE than $1500 dollars! so when they see bad weather coming they can hitail it back to shore. They also have a good radio or cell phone.

really? you need all that? hmm i must be doing something wrong.
I just take a survival suit, radio and my little 2.5 horse. set the sail and go.
must be a different ocean down your way

[TerryLL]

Good points Kenjamin. The dory was dismissed in the first post because Mike wanted "a better behaving boat". But the class of boats carrying the "dory" label is large and diverse, and offers sailing, rowing, and power performance from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some dories are indeed very tender and need some getting used to. Others are as stiff and stable as any reasonable person could want. Certainly within the "dory" class a suitable design exists.

As for the Oughtred 18'3" John Dory, I found her to be a lovely oar and sail boat, and very well-behaved. I only used her among the outer islands of Southeast Alaska, so I can't say how she would handle flat waters and calm winds.

[gavinpascoe]

Any thoughts on this dory?
http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#FISH

There are a few possibles I think on this site

[ShagRock]

The other thing is if you built a 17' dory traditionally, how much would all the traditional tools cost to do the build? About how long would it take to build it traditionally? How much would good quality timber cost for the build? Ideally, what would it weigh when you're done?

Lots of food for thought in those questions! It's important to consider the 'relative' nature of solutions; something I think is essential and unique to each person's situation.

Traditional builders used whatever tools were available at the time. If you do the same now, you are building traditional IMO..if you want to build with tools of the past..that's a different story. The same holds true for wood. If you can get license to cut and know a small sawmill owner, you can do it like it was always done..which was always easier in rural versus urban areas.

If you have the skills, building a boat in traditional manner (try and nail down a definition for that if you are so inclined) would not take 'a lot' longer than with so called modern methods. Most small boats built some years ago (and today where traditions are carried on) are heavier with more framing and thicker planks and IMO more sturdy for the ocean...especially at the wee distance of a mile from land..more aptly called inshore as opposed to offshore.

[TerryLL]

Any thoughts on this dory?
http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#FISH


http://www.selway-fisher.com/Swamp16d1.gif

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Swamp16p1.jpg http://www.selway-fisher.com/Swamp16p2.jpg http://www.selway-fisher.com/Swamp16p3.jpg
16' Fisher Swampscott Particulars
LOA 16' 4.88m Beam 5' and 5'6" 1.53 and 1.68m Hull Mid Depth 1' 6 1/2" 0.47m Draft 5"/2'9" 0.13/0.84m Sail Area 90 sq.ft 8.37 sq.m Approx. Dry Weight 250 lbs 113 kg Hull Shape
Swampscott with flat bottom plank plus 4 planks per side Construction Methods Stitch and tape and clinker ply

Fairly standard Swampscott design, but significantly wider for her length that the traditional working boats that needed to be rowed over long distances. The added beam will make this boat more stable, especially the version with 5'6" beam and wider transom. I would lose the gaff rig and bowsprit and use a loose-footed sprit rig. A prime example of the never-ending variety available in the dory hull form.

[ShagRock]

But the class of boats carrying the "dory" label is large and diverse, and offers sailing, rowing, and power performance from one end of the spectrum to the other.
Terry makes an 'essential' point here because there is really no such thing as 'a dory' but various types for specific purposes...like comparing traditional boats such as a Grand Banks dory stacked on a schooner to a Swampscott dory used for the inshore fishing off Massachusetts.

[ShagRock]

Other than sail or oar, no engine is needed or desired. This is mostly an issue of personal confidence and level of seamanship.

While it's a nice egocentric concept, I think otherwise; and so do most of those who make their living off the sea.

[Mike123]

Thanks for the advice.

I've found the boat I'm going to build under another post: Christmas Wherry/Daisy 15/Hvalsoe 16 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98288)
An Oughtred Ness Yawl. It was James McMullen's description that talked me into it.

Those who pointed to plywood were wasting their time. I'm old fashioned (but not old). These new fangled, build em quick then build another, techniques aren't my cup of tea.

I'm going to learn to plank clinker style and rove with copper. This is going to be fun!

I guess I should have posted my experience at the beginning. I've built a small post and beam building, and a canoe, as well as many other things. The canoe was made from rolled flooring material and oak pallets with epoxy and fiberglass covering the bottom. I don't want to do the epoxy thing again, been there done that.

Again, thanks.

[peter radclyffe]

Donald, Donald. Donald.

What is all this alarmist nonsense? For people who live and work on the salt, a mile or more offshore in an open boat is an everyday occurence, done with perfect confidence, and with no sense of danger or impending tragedy.

New boaters of course need to build their skills and proceed with caution, but a decent boat suited to the conditions and handled with a modicum of common sense is certainly in no more danger a mile out than it would be 100 yards out.
have you ever been to the english, french channel islands

[peter radclyffe]

have you ever been to the english, french channel islands
then again, the Dyes sailed all over the world in a dinghy, if you want a cheap boat, how about erik the red, built from skip culture

[TerryLL]

have you ever been to the english, french channel islands

Well, no.
But looking at a map of that area I see that the Channel Islands are at latitude 50 degrees north and open to the vast expanse of the Atlantic.

But I have spent the last 25 years living on an island in the Gulf of Alaska at latitude 57 degrees north and open to the vast expanse of the Pacific.

So if you are asking if I have experience boating in harsh conditions, on big water, in high winds, on a daily basis, year in and year out, if that is your question, then yes I have.

[2MeterTroll]

naa us out here on in the west got nothing like the channel islands. TerryLL just look at the weather reports and sea state. :) (very tongue in cheek)

[TerryLL]

naa us out here on in the west got nothing like the channel islands. TerryLL just look at the weather reports and sea state. :) (very tongue in cheek)

Yup. It's called the Pacific because its so darn peaceful. Nothing but flat seas and calm winds 24/7, barely a ripple to be seen even in the winter.

[James McMullen]

Mike, I'm glad you found my description useful! But if you are going to plank up a Ness Yawl style boat with traditional planking then you should look at the Arctic Tern instead with her greater number of planks per side. Really wide planks that you'd need for the garboards of Ness Yawl will prove problematical in solid timber. The Arctic Tern design is actually closer in shape to the original Shetland Ness Yoles and will be a better candidate for solid timber planking.

[peter radclyffe]

Well, no.
But looking at a map of that area I see that the Channel Islands are at latitude 50 degrees north and open to the vast expanse of the Atlantic.

But I have spent the last 25 years living on an island in the Gulf of Alaska at latitude 57 degrees north and open to the vast expanse of the Pacific.

So if you are asking if I have experience boating in harsh conditions, on big water, in high winds, on a daily basis, year in and year out, if that is your question, then yes I have.
your a very experienced seaman, i couldnt advise someone with no exp to go out to sea in an open boat

[TerryLL]

Peter,
I don't want to get in a spitting match with you, I really don't. But I need to clearly state, so there is absolutely no confusion, that my advice to inexperienced boaters is that they stay well within their skill and comfort level, and that they build their boating knowledge cautiously over time.

I think my earlier post said just that, but perhaps something was lost in translation.

For people who live and work on the salt, a mile or more offshore in an open boat is an everyday occurence, done with perfect confidence, and with no sense of danger or impending tragedy.

New boaters of course need to build their skills and proceed with caution, but a decent boat suited to the conditions and handled with a modicum of common sense is certainly in no more danger a mile out than it would be 100 yards out.

[Charles Burgess]

Howard Blackburn sailed a modified Swampscott Dory named Great Western from Gloucester in 1899, and reached Gloucester England after 62 days at sea.

Beginners are naturally afraid of the sea, especially when they are in a small open boat. Those big 4 foot waves are scary. It is the type of fear that can be overcome with experience, and only with experience. It is similar to learning to swim where the natural fear of deep water keeps beginners in the shallows. The same goes for inshore boaters getting used to offshore conditions.

Carpenters (house framers) regularly walk the top-plate of the house they are framing - usually a 2x4, on a 2 story house it may be 2x6. When such a board is on the ground it is easy to walk on and keep your balance. Place that board on a saw horse and it is just a little more difficult. Put that board 8 to 10 feet high and most beginners cannot walk it easily. The only difference is height - thus it is solely a confidence issue that can only be resolved through experience.

In an inshore situation, the same process is at work. Your natural fear levels decrease through experience of repeated exposure, and hopefully at the same time your level of seamanship hopefully increases as well (the seamanship part is by deliberate effort).

A mile off the shore is not very far. Standing on the beach looking out to the horizon which is about 12 miles away, a small open boat (14-18 fto LOA) a mile out is very visible (depending on its color scheme). From the boat a mile out, looking toward the shore you can clearly see people with your naked eye (assuming 20/20 vision with or without glasses/contacts)...when you go farther out people are much harder to see, thus that is your natural gauge of how far from shore you are. When there are no people on shore, look for people sized objects you can visually relate to...with experience you will be able to gauge distance from shore by the natural features of the shoreline.

In my opinion, an open boat ensures that those who lack experience will not venture out very far. With a boat with a cuddy or some sort of shelter can give a inexperienced person a false sense of security. It is sort of like going 30-40 mph in a car, and then doing the same on a bicycle...the perceived experience is vastly different.

[Charles Burgess]

And if you are one step below the required level you can die.
Here on Lake Erie exhibitions of nautical ignorance are legendary. Most of those stricken were full of confidence. I won't bother you with the details.

Aye...but it only takes basic seamanship to keep you and your boat safe.

Exhibitions of nautical ignorance ...well put. Unfortunately 99% of recreational boaters leave common sense on shore, let alone bother with learning any seamanship. For me, learning seamanship and practicing it is a key factor in making boating so much fun. Without all that nautical stuff boating can become boring.

Most of those stricken were full of confidence ...and three sheets to the wind - in many cases.

The recent movie "Open Water 2" is a good case in point - too many people, especially young folks, see boats as nothing more than party barges.

[TerryLL]

Good points Charles.

I would like to add that good boats with good crews occasionally set out in fair weather, never to be seen again. There are conditions of wind and sea that will sink any ship. But experience and a large dose of caution will keep most safe.

[kenjamin]

Once when I was puttering along in my 13' skiff with its ten horse Johnon on Matanzas Bay (St. Augustine, FL) a gaint manta-ray jumped up about ten feet in the air and did a big belly flop near my boat. It would have crushed me and the boat had it landed much closer, however, the darn thing nearly gave me a heart attack. It was huge!!!:eek: Sometimes it's not wind or sea or lack of seamanship that can engineer your untimely death on the water.

[Daniel Noyes]

Can you tell us more about this new boat design?
You mention the center board, what sort of steering arrangement, What rig are you considering. We have a avid kayak fishing fleet that puts in at Joppa in Newburyport in pursuit of striped bass a small cartopable open boat would be ideal for their purpose.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com


I'm in the very early stages of a design iteration spiral that sounds a lot like the specs of the original post in this thread.

The client wants to do some simple day sailing a few miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico; a simple traditional design that can be car topped (on a pickup or suv) or trailered; can be rowed when necessary; a centerboard for windward work; large enough for 2 to 4 people and gear.

I am drawing as my inspiration the very traditional Yole fishing boat (could be the early predecessor of the dory) used for many generations among the Shetland Islands off the northeastern coast of Scotland. It would look somewhat like the Caledonia Yawl that kenjamin has shown above.

Right now it looks like about 18 to 20 ft LOA, and by using common lumber it could be built for around $1500 US (or so) for the basic hull and mast. If I take some 2x12 flat sawn SYP and resaw it to 3/16" thick (the resulting timber will then be quarter sawn - much cheaper than using marine plywood); using double diagonal planking with an outer layer planked fore-n-aft, bonded with West Systems epoxy; a thin outer fiberglass cloth/epoxy sheathing; traditional BLO finishing on the inner hull. For the mast I could used hollow/laminated douglas fir or spruce (spruce might bump up the price a little but would be worth it). Keeping the interior fittings very basic and simple will keep costs down, and you can enhance these later as future mini-projects.

Sails (not included in the price) do not need to be the typical modern type. Traditional sails made from light canvas (painter's drop cloths can be used) would work well enough. You can sew the sails yourself...get a book on marlinespike seamanship (you might find some videos too) - and have some fun doing it all yourself.

The end result would be a very seaworthy, traditional looking and handling, sail boat with workboat charm.