Alden Indian Class

[Jlaup]

I'm thinking of building an Indian class from the Wooden boat plans. I can't tell if the boat has running or fixed back stays. Does anyone know. I'll be single handling the boat, so I'd prefer not to have running back stays. Spent my youth sailing a Dark Harbor Seventeen and the running backstays always made single handed tacks a bit frantic.
Thanks,
John

[ishmael]

Running. Look at the rig, you couldn't put a fixed back stay on that rig. Pretty easy to manage, just another string to pull.

If you build an Indian can I come for a sail someday? They are wonderful boats.

[rbgarr]

They race as a fleet in Nantucket without any backstays at all. See photos here: http://tinyurl.com/lo9yy4
As the description of the class on the site notes, there were several variations of the Alden Indian (in Nantucket, Jamestown and Kennebunkport) so you may want to investigate how the plans you have differ.

[Ian McColgin]

rbgarr has a point. There's a lovely Indian next to Marmalade's spars out at Pease with no fittings for runners.

On that lovely hull I personally think the bowsprit is a tad heavy looking. I think it was made stout to make up for the absence of whiskers, but I think the job could have been done better with a flattish ovoid section.

Fussy fussy. She's an incredibly beautiful boat. They don't need backstays because the hull is so slick that no matter the wind, the boat just keeps up.

[TerryLL]

The WB plans for the Indian are the 1940 reissue featuring the 230 sq. ft. Marconi rig with running back stays. There is a 1921 version with the original 220 sq. ft. gaff rig without back stays.

Here's a pic of a lapstrake Indian with running back stays.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/Indiantransom.jpg?t=1244209129

[Thad]

Nice picture there of CHEYENNE with Greg Lawrence.

[Jlaup]

Well I am a big fan of gaff rigs, and I suspect stepping the shorter mast would be a bit easier (go ahead ask my wife if she'd help-I'll be in the the next state.) I'll look into the older gaff rig sail plan. Thanks to all.

[TerryLL]

Jlaup,

This is a boat very similar to the original Indian. It was designed for the Panama Yacht Club I think in the 1920's. I post it here just to give you some idea what a gaff Indian would look like.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Efassitt/canoe_mirror/miller/illo_03/22ft_Decked_Skiff.JPG

[rbgarr]

Terryll,

Thanks for the correction. I'm logged on at a hotel and on their bigger screen I can just make out the running backstays on the Nantucket YC's photos of the boats.

[Jlaup]

I like the gaff rig and the keeper on the jib. I e-mailed the Alden folks (http://www.aldendesigns.com/classics.html) not the modern Alden to see what they had. If they come up empty, would I be crazy to extrapolate from this drawing to come up with a sail and spar plan?

[TerryLL]

I like the gaff rig and the keeper on the jib. I e-mailed the Alden folks (http://www.aldendesigns.com/classics.html) not the modern Alden to see what they had. If they come up empty, would I be crazy to extrapolate from this drawing to come up with a sail and spar plan?

I contacted Alden about a year ago and they said they had no record of the gaff sail plan. However, I have a copy of the original sail plan drawn by Sam Crocker when he worked for the Alden firm. It's large format, so I can't post it here. I'll try to get a decent digital pic. If that fails I can do a large-format copy, but that will be a few bucks.

The Panama Yacht Club boat is nearly identical to the Indian and has been mistaken for the Indian a number of times, so using that sail plan would certainly be very close. I can provide exact dimensions for all the particulars of the Indian rig if the photo or copy thing doesn't work out.

[Thad]

I have a copy of the original Indian sail plan, gaff rig.

[TerryLL]

Hi Thad,
Jlaup has contacted me by PM and I'm going to make him a copy of the copy you sent me. It's on my agenda for tomorrow. Wouldn't it be terrific if a bunch of folks built the Indian with the original gaff rig?

[Thad]

It would be terrific! Have to come for a sail.

[TerryLL]

Here's a copy of the original gaff sail plan for the Alden Indian. The reduction from the original is hard to read so all the pertinent dimensions are listed below.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/GaffIndianC.jpg?t=1244491139


ALDEN INDIAN GAFF SAIL PLAN DIMENSIONS

From plans dated Mar 15, 1921 on Sail Plan No. 148
Plans are marked “John G. Alden – Naval Architect, S.S.C. Jr.”


Main 180 sq. ft.
Staysail 40 sq. ft.
Total 220 sq. ft.

Main
Foot 15-5
Hoist 11-10
Head 10-0
Leech 21-5
Roach not shown
Diagonal from boom end to gaff jaws 18-0
Diagonal from gooseneck to gaff end 21-3

Staysail
Foot 6-2
Luff 14-10
Leech 13-2

Mast
Deck to shoulder 17-10
Diameter at deck 4 inches
Diameter at gaff jaws 3.5 inches
Diameter at shoulder 2.75 inches
Diameter at top not shown

Gaff
Length 10-3
Diameter at jaws 2 inches
Diameter at end 1.75 inches
Diameter at center 2.375 inches

Boom
Length 15-9
Diameter at gooseneck 2 inches
Diameter at end 1.75 inches
Diameter at center 2.5 inches

Club
Length 5-2
Diameter not shown

[Jlaup]

Terry-
Thanks a ton.
John

[Jlaup]

Quick update-

The stem is laminated and waiting a few days to come off the form. I used a slow hardener. 16 1/4' x 2 1/4" x 8 foot laminations needed all the time to assemble and clamp that I could get. Went more smoothly than I expected. I think the overnight dry clamp helped a lot.

Sawn frame stock is being dimensioned.

BTW, I'm doing it in glued lapstrake. Trying to figure out if I need the intermediate bent frames. I have reduced the planking from 5/8 pine to 3/8 okoume. It has nearly the same specific density as the pine. So displacement should be un-affected.

I'll take pictures and set up sharing page somewhere for those who are interested.

All advice gratefully accepted and appreciated.

John

[TerryLL]

Oh yes on the pictures. Many and often.

[Ian McColgin]

I was talking with an veteran Indian sailor today - brilliant young skipper of impressivly diverse racing, voyaging and building experience - and he mentioned that the boat can be interesting in high winds, developing a strong lee helm. So the first order of reefing is to the jib and only after that to the main.

[Dave Gray]

There is a WBF publication where they did the Indian in glued lapstrake. It has been a while but I think it was a book where they built ten different boats. Forget what rig was used.

"Ten Wooden Boats You Can Build", edited by Phil Spectre

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/10-Wooden-Boats-You-Can-Build/productinfo/325-102/

Edited to add - oops! I was thinking about the Biscayne Bay 14, not the same thing at all. Dementia I guess.

[ishmael]

"I was talking with an veteran Indian sailor today - brilliant young skipper of impressivly diverse racing, voyaging and building experience - and he mentioned that the boat can be interesting in high winds, developing a strong lee helm. So the first order of reefing is to the jib and only after that to the main."

The plain sail on the boat is humungous. 230 feet in the Marconi rig on a 21 ft. centerboard boat. I think a Folkboat only has 210. I never experienced any problem with the helm, it was always sweet, but I didn't sail the boat for many years.

Great boats. Very pretty.

[rbgarr]

"Ten Wooden Boats You Can Build", edited by Phil Spectre


Phil's boats have lots of sail area.
http://i39.tinypic.com/3020w34.jpg

The ones in Peter Spectre's book are less radical. :D;)

[Mait Edey]

Dear TerryLL: I'm about to design a gaff rig for an Indian, and just came across the drawing you posted. Didn't know it existed. Do you know where I can get a copy? Thanks.
Mait Edey

[TerryLL]

The copy I have is large format, sent to me by another forumite. The Alden firm has no record of the gaff rig. The information I posted above contains all the dimensions on the copy I have. I've never seen the rig anywhere else.

[Mait Edey]

Thanks TerryLL. I can proceed with my variation without the drawing. The spar dimensions you provided are helpful. I assume the mast is solid, no? It sure looks like a Crocker drawing to me; his style was distinctive even at that early stage. Too bad the Alden office doesn't have it; it's a valuable bit of history, though obscure.
Mait Edey

[TerryLL]

There's nothing on the 1921 drawing to indicate mast construction. The 1940 redraw shows a solid mast for the Marconi rig.

[Thad]

When Lee Van Gemert and his friends sailed Indians out of Squantum, MA, they moved them around on flat bed trailers, hauling and launching off the beach, with the help of sheer legs with block and tackle -- the legs long enough to spread wider than the trailer wheel base while lifting the boat. They would lift the stern and set it on a box higher than the trailer bed, then lift the bow and roll the trailer out before lowering the bow to the beach and lifting the stern to remove the box. The sheerlegs would then serve to assist in stepping the mast or they would use a convenient ramp, pier, or tree (as above). The gaff mast is only 20' long and should be possible to handle much more easily.

[TerryLL]

Just a few other thoughts. The garboard in my boat was really wide, I want to say twelve inches lap to lap, It's not easy to find that stock today.

Yup. Plank stock for a solid-lumber rivetted hull will be a real challenge to find. When I was considering this hull I decided early on that ply lap was the way I'd do it. Oooooh, I can already hear the gnashing of teeth.

[Thad]

Dory laps to develop a wide garboard are not that bad.

[Jlaup]

The frames, stem, and transom are done and beveled. These parts are all mounted on the building jig. Slow going but fun. The bottom is ready to be cut out and the CB trunk is assembled but waiting for the bottom to go on in order to be scribed for fitting. I'd post pictures but I only have 81 kb of space and my pictures are too big. I'll work on this.

[tprice]

"I was talking with an veteran Indian sailor today - brilliant young skipper of impressivly diverse racing, voyaging and building experience - and he mentioned that the boat can be interesting in high winds, developing a strong lee helm. So the first order of reefing is to the jib and only after that to the main."

The plain sail on the boat is humungous. 230 feet in the Marconi rig on a 21 ft. centerboard boat. I think a Folkboat only has 210. I never experienced any problem with the helm, it was always sweet, but I didn't sail the boat for many years.

Great boats. Very pretty.

Pretty sure the lee helm is because in a blow, the main is eased while jib is still sheeted. shallow bowed boats will do that. A Star (with 285 sq ft of sail!) will certainly do that - shortly before the end of the main boom hits the water and "sheets" it back in restoring balance (and heel!) and putting your heart in your throat! At least with a keel, the Star will come back up!
No essential rig inbalance here than what any other large main boat (suddenly deprived of its force) would have.

[Jlaup]

My thought was essentially the same. I'd ease the jib substantially. With so much main astern, that should return a balanced helm.

[Daniel Noyes]

The frames, stem, and transom are done and beveled. These parts are all mounted on the building jig. Slow going but fun. The bottom is ready to be cut out and the CB trunk is assembled but waiting for the bottom to go on in order to be scribed for fitting. I'd post pictures but I only have 81 kb of space and my pictures are too big. I'll work on this.

Awsome!
you are building it :)

I hope you take this boat around to local meets and races, show it off.
The Small Reach Regatta at Wooden Boat campus in Maine, the Plesant Bay Cat races on Cape cod and the Gloucester Schooner races would be excelent events for this boat...
hey Ill race/sail with you (though you'll beat me)
I built a glued lap 21' Beachcomber-Alpha racing dory last year.

The question on balance of main and jib may be with the reef in the main? (hence before reefing main, take care of jib)
I'm only guessing, the Ipswich Bay 18 sailing dory I designed has a well balanced weather helm under full sail but with the main reefed she is neutral and with the jib trimmed slightly tighter than the main she will head off wind, I suggest the IB 18 either go under full sail or reefed main only.

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3099633754_a1c7063e46_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/3099633754/in/set-72157608651570153/)http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide2small.jpg/Slide2small-custom;size:146,110.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/)

[Jlaup]

My mom has a house on Eggemoggin Reach at Pumpkin Island. Good chance it will end up there at some point Otherwise, you'll have to come to lake Sunapee to race me. But don't hold your breath. This ain't exactly whipping along.

[Daniel Noyes]

My mom has a house on Eggemoggin Reach at Pumpkin Island. Good chance it will end up there at some point Otherwise, you'll have to come to lake Sunapee to race me. But don't hold your breath. This ain't exactly whipping along.

There you go!
the Small Reach Regatta is held on Eggamoggin Reach, leaving from Brooklyn Maine WB campus.
Will you be on the water by next July?

[Jlaup]

I think this link should provide some pictures. The boat now has the bottom on but not permanently fastened. The centerboard trunk is done and I'm painting the interior. I'll add some more pictures tomorrow.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22083746@N02/sets/

[Jlaup]

More photos. The C/B trunk is glued up and I will install it once the humungous garboards are on. The garboards are 19" wide at frame 4 and about 18' long. They will be fun! The bottom is on permanently and beveled for the garboards. Big bevels-3+ wide between frames 4 and 6. The stem bevel has been finished and slightly hollowed. The bottom is two piece. The 3/4" piece shown is the first layer. Once the garboards are on, they are planed flush with the bottom and a second 3/4" bottom is attached.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22083746@N02/sets/72157622191400309/

[TerryLL]

Very nice! Keep those photos coming.

[Jlaup]

Couple more photos up. Garboard spiled.
Question about deck canvassing. I'm way ahead of myself but... I've seen threads about dynel and that canvas rots quickly. The dynel is not wide enough and the seam might be a problem. I saw in the Haven 12 1/2 book that they saturated the canvas deck with epoxy and used white lead for the rear platform. I like the idea of using canvas w/ epoxy. I think it should allow a single piece of canvas to cover the whole deck and the epoxy would keep the canvas from breaking down. Kirby paint on top. Navy topsides, green tint deck. Same colors as our Dark Harbor 17 1/2 in the Buck's Harbor fleet. Sail number '1' if you are up there. Saw hi to my cousin John if you see him.