Monohull for a wind/speed addict who has sailed tri for past decade....

[David Geiss]

Calling all boat design gurus..
I have been happily sailing a small tri since the mid 90's...likely won't part with her so quickly but need to add a more social boat to the stable. Taking siblings and neices/nephews, friends out just does not work on this boat.

Criteria:
easily trailerable
easy on the eyes
freestanding spar (fore aft rig OK too)
able to be single handed and will sit reasonably on her lines with just me on board (170lbs)
shoal draft..I'm a gunkholer of Barnegt Bay and beyond.
blue water ability only in best conditions
performance oriented, ie no dogs needs apply
ability to accommodate 3 to maybe 4 reasonably sized adult humans
crusing not likely but a small cuddy (with ability to augment with dodger/boom tent) would be nice

What do y'all think?
Then again there may those among you who steer me in the direction of a slightly larger tri?

Best,
Dave

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Romilly - Designed by the tri designer.
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images/romilly_-_w25.jpg


http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/romillyspv.html

[David Geiss]

Bill Buchholz (Apache Boatworks, Camden ME) and I discussed Romily.
He has built and sailed one.
I agree that she seems stellar.
If she just drew less water with Bd up........
Love the rig absolutely!!!!!!!
Dave;)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

One Foot Eight - Twenty Inches - You're a hard man to please.

However - today is the fiftieth anniversary of the ultimate shallow draught caft.

The Hovercraft (http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/patentsblog/2009/06/50th-anniversary-of-the-hovercraft.html)

http://www.hovercraft.org.uk/picture.php?albumid=42&pictureid=432

[SScoville]

Check out the Core Sound and Bay River Skiff series: http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/index.html

[David Geiss]

What can I say...touche!!!!
I have grown accustomed to 6" bd up in the Fulmar.
Maybe I need to change where I sail or my expectations.
even 16" Bd up would give me the flexibility I am seeking.

Have you sailed the Romily?
Impressions?

Best,
David

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

...
Have you sailed the Romily?
Impressions?

Best,
David


'Fraid not - but she is just achingly beautiful.

[David Geiss]

I feel your pain......
That rig is really pleasing to look at.

[johnw]

Norwalk Island Sharpie.

[DGentry]

Ultimate 20. Not a freestanding rig, but it does have a lifting keel and is, of course, very performance oriented. Fits all your other criteria.

Or, did you want to build something? The I550 sportboat might be what you are looking for. Also with a lifting keel, rather than shoal draft.
http://www.i550sportboat.com/i550.html

There are a couple of larger (but still basically small) catamarans out there, too, with minimal accommodations. Like the Gougeon 32, or the something I can't remember, or Thomas Firth Jones' folding cat Brine Shrimp. http://jonesboats.com/brineshrimp.html

Or, for another trimaran, the Thomas Firth Jones designed Night Heron - it also folds for trailering.
http://jonesboats.com/nightheron.html


http://jonesboats.com/Images/niteherplans.jpg


Good luck!
Dave Gentry

[TerryLL]

A second vote for the Norwalk Island Sharpie.
Eight inches board up.

http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS_23KIAMA360DPI.jpg

http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS-23-Layout.jpg

http://www.nisboats.com/mainpages/plans.html

[JimConlin]

Dick Newick's 'Spark'
http://www.oceannavigator.com/Media/PublicationsArticle/175/33789_16b.jpg

There's more HERE (http://www.oceannavigator.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications::Article&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=89CF3E79F94F47FC8DAA61E2C612D8C5).

Contact me off-list for still more.

[David Geiss]

Jim, WOW, that's an impressive vessel. Nice rig and very sophisticated hull shapes. Probably a wetter ride than I am looking for.

The Fulmar is great where there is wind and not a lot of fetch (ie marsh or peninsula). Open water with fetch and wind of any magnitude, be prepared to get wet.

Stretching the season a bit is also an objective here......I'm right behind you at 50 and can't see myself getting half buckets of water jettisoned at me for a whole lot longer. Then again, I said I was looking for performance.....no perfect solution I admit but Spark looks to be a very people friendly and nicely proportioned tri.

Besides the coaming mentioned in the linked article and perhaps the means to fold, have you given a lot of thought to how the next iteration might be improved?

Terry, the NIS.....have never even sailed a Lightning or Snipe so all of my thinking on deadrise skiffs, skipjacks and sharpies is based upon what I see and read......a little knowledge could be dangerous....I've heard it said often that one needs to sail hard chined boats before going down that path. The shoal draft and slender beam appeals to the open canoe sailor in me.

Best,
David

Dave

[johnw]

Jim, WOW, that's an impressive vessel. Nice rig and very sophisticated hull shapes. Probably a wetter ride than I am looking for.

The Fulmar is great where there is wind and not a lot of fetch (ie marsh or peninsula). Open water with fetch and wind of any magnitude, be prepared to get wet.

Stretching the season a bit is also an objective here......I'm right behind you at 50 and can't see myself getting half buckets of water jettisoned at me for a whole lot longer. Then again, I said I was looking for performance.....no perfect solution I admit but Spark looks to be a very people friendly and nicely proportioned tri.

Besides the coaming mentioned in the linked article and perhaps the means to fold, have you given a lot of thought to how the next iteration might be improved?

Terry, the NIS.....have never even sailed a Lightning or Snipe so all of my thinking on deadrise skiffs, skipjacks and sharpies is based upon what I see and read......a little knowledge could be dangerous....I've heard it said often that one needs to sail hard chined boats before going down that path. The shoal draft and slender beam appeals to the open canoe sailor in me.

Best,
David

Dave

NIS isn't a deadrise skiff, it's flat bottomed except the 31, which is arc-bottom. These are sharpies.

[Bill Huson]

i550 - like Tokyo Trash Baby. This boat honks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsVSMCQaSjU&feature=related

[Wiley Baggins]

Perhaps Dudley Dix -

Didi 23 - http://www.dixdesign.com/23didi.htm

Didi 26 - http://www.dixdesign.com/26didi.htm

Edited to add: I missed that freestanding spar bit - maybe you're flexible on that, or maybe you're willing to do the engineering/spending/both required to keep that part of your criteria.

[JimConlin]

Jim, WOW, that's an impressive vessel. Nice rig and very sophisticated hull shapes. Probably a wetter ride than I am looking for.
...
Besides the coaming mentioned in the linked article and perhaps the means to fold, have you given a lot of thought to how the next iteration might be improved?
...
I'm putting a full-width dodger on it a expect that'll make things a lot less wet.
As for improving it, I have no complaint with the design. The boat does what the designer said it would and any tweaks are minor.

I have not contemplated folding. Redesigning the boat for folding, telescoping or other quick assembly approaches would require more compromises of structural integrity, weight, performance or aesthetics than I can accept. It's not going to be trailered very often.

In building Damfino, I had a mixed success. I've had NO signs of structural problem in a season's use, but I think I managed to find the slow way to build just about every part , so I'm trying to refine construction details and building process. The refinement of rigging and systems is an ongoing process.

[David Geiss]

Maybe I should take a ride up with the Fulmar in tow and meet up for a day of sailing and tri talk? I have brand new Trailex aluminum rig so have no excuse......

Maybe you'll hook me on Newick's Spark.

Dave

[Ian McColgin]

If you can't find an old wooden Thistle to restore, try for something hot like So & So by LFH.

[James McMullen]

Hard-chined, flat bottom boats are not to everyone's taste. They're certainly not to mine--and I tried for years and years since they're so easy to build.

Seriously, you probably can't do any better than a Romilly in both looks and performance in that size range. . . . what were your objections to her again? I'd build a Romilly in a heartbeat if I didn't need a boat with a full cabin to please my lady.

[michigangeorge]

David, check your mail.

[Hwyl]

Have you sailed the Romily?
Impressions?

Best,
David

They have (or had) a donated one at Courageous in Boston. It looked a bit twee to me in the flesh. They don't talk about it on their site, you could contact them directly http://www.courageoussailing.org/home/our-fleet

[Daniel Noyes]

From the "wind/speed addict" title I got the impression speed was a priority, if NIS or Romily are a option then there are hundreds of others. If you are looking for speed under sail you'll want to look at mainly sloop rigged craft as they will likely have a major aerodynamic advantage over other designs.
The cuddy is a bit of a problem because generally performance designs under 35+- ft won't have one.
What were your thoughts about the i550
how about a lightning with a boom tent.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[David Geiss]

Based upon what everyone is saying I really need to go out and sail both the Lightning and the Thistle. Have to say that the Lightning hull shape really appeals to me. I look at them up on trailers all the time at the Surf City Yacht Club ion Barnegat Bay.

Need to learn more about the Thistle.
The i550 looks like a handful....I'm not sure if those planing wide stern dinghies really talk to me......

Gareth, di you mean Romily looks tender? I have heard that as well........would need means to quickly reef that lug mainsail.
Draft on her a little more than I am accustomed to, but I agree she is sharp!!!!!!

Thanks all for the great ideas.
Dave

[johnw]

A Thistle doesn't have a deck, let alone a cuddy. Being light is part of what makes it so fast.

[Hwyl]

Gareth, di you mean Romily looks tender?
It did, but what I meant was it had dolls house proportions and the cabin would have been better as a cuddy.

[Charles Burgess]

The New Haven Sharpie is the long time historic favorite for your area and should meet all of your specifications quite easily. The New Haven Sharpie originated in New Haven CT, the design quickly migrated to the Chesapeake area and modified to become the Chesapeake Bay Skipjack. The New Haven Sharpie was specifically designed for the water conditions of your area.

A modern design was done by Joel White a few years back based upon Commodore Munroe's Egret and is found in the WB Store at a very reasonable price and should be an easy build. This design is fast and dry, trailer-able, easily single handed with the traditional rigging - difficult to blow down by a sudden gust.

Since you are on a woodenboat forum ... if you go with this type of design you will have a truly classic and historic-styled vessel that can literally blow away all modern sail designs (for the size) in relation to speed and ease of handling...a real sleeper that everyone on the water will drool over.

[johnw]

The New Haven Sharpie is the long time historic favorite for your area and should meet all of your specifications quite easily. The New Haven Sharpie originated in New Haven CT, the design quickly migrated to the Chesapeake area and modified to become the Chesapeake Bay Skipjack. The New Haven Sharpie was specifically designed for the water conditions of your area.

A modern design was done by Joel White a few years back based upon Commodore Munroe's Egret and is found in the WB Store at a very reasonable price and should be an easy build. This design is fast and dry, trailer-able, easily single handed with the traditional rigging - difficult to blow down by a sudden gust.

Since you are on a woodenboat forum ... if you go with this type of design you will have a truly classic and historic-styled vessel that can literally blow away all modern sail designs (for the size) in relation to speed and ease of handling...a real sleeper that everyone on the water will drool over.

I've sailed a version of the Egret replica by Joel White, and I would not call that boat fast. A New Haven sharpie would be a lot faster, but would need modern foils to go to windward well. I've sailed a 35' New Haven sharpie quite a lot, and she flys on a reach, but points like a gaffer. Sheet her too tight, and she slides to leeward.

Norwalk Island sharpies update the type and sail quite well.

[David Geiss]

Gee, every time I see the NIS shape, I go back to that lovely Lightning arc bottomed shape and legendary (well, kinda sorta) speed. If I could find a day boat hull with that shape to build with freestanding rig, shoal draft and a little cuddy, I would be on to something. I recall reading about the work of Clapham. Maybe something I need to look into more.

There's a summer get together of wooden Lightnings in Syracuse, NY...could be on my short list that get together.

The flat bottom thing just does not seem to talk to me even though everyone talks about how able the NIS is.

Best,
David

[johnw]

Looks to me like the NIS 18 is closer to what you want than a modified Lightning.

http://www.brucekirbymarine.com/sharpie.html

http://www.nisboats.com/mainpages/nis18.html

Bruce Kirby designed an awful lot of successful racing boats, from International 14s up. His boats do move.

[Woxbox]

But you know you really want a daysailing tri:
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/daysail/19_tri.htm


http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/daysail/19tritop.gif

[2MeterTroll]

IMO take one of these tri designs and make it SOF you will have a boat you can put the kids and such on and the performance like nothing you have ever seen. you might have to get some rocks to hold her in the water a little.

[TerryLL]

Since you're considering the Lightening and the Thistle, how about one of these? Can't ask for more performance, or good looks.


http://www.nantucketyachtclub.org/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=1457005

[David Geiss]

Indian class? Have been reading a recent related thread.
Wait, need to go back and read it again.....
Looks as if its beachable.....real bonus!
What beautiful lines!!!!!!!

While I love all these other tris (Hughes, Newick), the Fulmar seems to supply the speed and thrill when needed. Snappy, easy to deal with shoal draft centerboard monohull is what I miss a bit. The Flying Scot I had as a kid was nice, especially on a plane. Now that I don't have the luxury of a dock or even mooring, I like the idea of simpler rigging. Sloop I agree would be nice for performance and I'm wondering if anyone has gone down the road of jib with headstay only (carbon mast or otherwise) or even stick up jib, a la Chappelle?

[TerryLL]

The original Indian carried a gaff rig. Two shrouds, one forestay. No running backstays, no jumperstays. The mast on the gaff Indian is about 18' deck to top, so it could be set in a permanent tabernacle and barely extend beyond the stern when trailering. Set-up would be fairly quick.

[johnw]

Indian class? Have been reading a recent related thread.
Wait, need to go back and read it again.....
Looks as if its beachable.....real bonus!
What beautiful lines!!!!!!!

While I love all these other tris (Hughes, Newick), the Fulmar seems to supply the speed and thrill when needed. Snappy, easy to deal with shoal draft centerboard monohull is what I miss a bit. The Flying Scot I had as a kid was nice, especially on a plane. Now that I don't have the luxury of a dock or even mooring, I like the idea of simpler rigging. Sloop I agree would be nice for performance and I'm wondering if anyone has gone down the road of jib with headstay only (carbon mast or otherwise) or even stick up jib, a la Chappelle?

Yes, they have. The jib luff sags off in a gust, making the sail fuller. Attaching two shrouds is not that much trouble. NIS, by the way, are often set up with a tabernacle.