first time boat builder need help with plan selection

[paulv]

I'm still in the process of trying to decide on what boat to build. I would like a boat for my wife and three kids ages 3-7-10. We live in north idaho and would like to use the boat on big lakes as well as small lakes, and rivers of all sizes.

First requirement: easy on gas no huge motor. I currently have a 4.5 hp motor but would eventually upgrade to a 15-20.

The boat has to "feel safe" for my wife as well as be very stable if we get caught up in a storm.

It must be beachable. there are beaches everywhere i'd like to be able to coast right up on the beach like the jet boats do.

Im considering
Tracy Obriens Headwaters 16
http://www.tracyobrien.com/moreinfo.asp?id=40

nexus marine 16' San Juan Dory
http://www.nexusmarine.com/san_juan_dory.html

InstaBoat Diablo
http://www.instantboats.com/diablo.htm

Spira International 17' tillamok power dory
http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_till.html

What do you all think are these good boats? any concerns with any of them? which are more efficient to run? What about ease of building and cost of materials?

[SScoville]

You ought to look at this one too: http://www.devlinboat.com/candlefish16.htm

[TerryLL]

Hey paulv,

Welcome to the forum. Where in the heck in northern Idaho are you. I'm in Sandpoint, so you can't be too far away.

Here's an option for a nice family-sized power boat.

http://www.dhylanboats.com/images/dhbplanbg3.jpg
19' Big Ben



It's also available in a smaller version:


http://www.dhylanboats.com/images/dhbplanbg1.jpg
15'9" Ben Garvey

Plans are available from WB and several members have built them. Can't beat a garvey for getting on and off the beach.

I've helped build about a half dozen O'Brien Deadrise boats in aluminum, so I can give you some guidance there if you decide to go that route.

[Yeadon]

I'd say 16 feet does seem a little small for what you're doing, though I think that Nexus Marine dory looks great in its own right.

As a kid, we went all over Puget Sound in a 17 foot Reinell, and there wasn't an inch of the sound or the Hood Canal between Shelton and Sucia that we didn't go look at. There were four of us in the boat. Mom, dad, my brother and I. Plus a dog. Plenty of room, as there were four corners to that cockpit, and there was room to get away from each other. Once you add that fifth person, I'd think the dynamics would change a bit. (Especially if you added a dog.) I think you'd want a bit more room ... the 19 foot Big Ben is an interesting idea. With small kids on the boat, I'd want a bit of freeboard. Not so much to keep the water out, but to give you a fighting chance of keeping the kids in the boat.

Take your time and remain optimistic, and I don't see why it would be such a tough first build.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Here's what you are up against.
If you choose a planing hull you have to have enough HP to get the boat up on plane. If you choose a lower HP motor the ability to plane may suddenly go away as your kids get bigger or you choose to carry more stuff.
If you choose a displacement hull a small motor will always suffice but you'll be locked into speeds of less than 10MPH. It is possible to drive a displacement hull above displacement speed but it involves running the guts out of your motor with attendent larger gas consumption.
What something will cost depends on the type of construction and the cost of things where you live. If you have a bill of materials for a particular design you can do a rough draft of what the materials will cost.
I usually suggest going to this site;
http://www.bateau.com/
You may not like anything in this catalog but every design has a bill of materials as part of the on-line study plans. All the major requirements are listed for the construction of the hull . Pick a hull that is close to what you desire and price out the items on the BOM according to what they will cost in your area. The BOM doesn't include motors, tanks, batteries, controls and other hardware items but it will give you a ball-park idea of what you can afford.
I'm not familiar with boating in your area but I surmize the wind blows mighty hard at elevation. Those dory style hulls may make your wife feel safe with their high sides but they will catch a lot of wind and could make manuevering in an adverse wind difficult unless you have motor big enough to overcome it. In boat designs everything is a trade off. Flat bottoms that are easy to beach can give a rather jolting ride if you drive them too fast in chop.
You have a lot of choices to make.

[TerryLL]

Here's another thing to consider. The big lakes in northern Idaho are BIG lakes. If your boat can muster only 6-10 miles per hour you may well find yourself an hour or more from any sort of protection. Storms do come up suddenly from time to time in this neck of the woods, and you may eventually be caught well offshore with a nasty squall bearing down. You need either a fast boat that can outrun the weather or a boat that can safely handle the wind and the waves until the storm passes. Either that or stay very close to a hidey hole.

The four designs you listed in your initial post are all on the small side for five people plus gear, and all would be very slow with either the 4.5 or the 20HP motors. A small, overloaded boat, with inadequate power, on a big lake, in a summer storm.....not good.

[2MeterTroll]

twenty feet or more. those kids aint gonna stay 3-7-and 10 for long and those beggers grow a bit. i would figure on about 200lb per person (ya the kids are small but the load of stuff a three year old requires far outweighs the kid.) so 20 by 5 some where abouts. theres several folks who could figure this out in pretty exact numbers. also you are going to have a out board and other stuff that is the boats so add another person weight to it and you should be around the ball park. so by my figure this puts you around 25 feet or so. hope that helps.

[paulv]

So a 16' might be a little small. We do have big lakes here but we would mostly stay on small waters. So looking into bigger boats what ideas do you all have on appropriate plans.

Im wondering what would be best for all around use a flat bottomed semi dory or a v bottom?

[TerryLL]

My vote still goes to the 19' Big Ben Garvey.

http://www.emcrosbyboatworks.com/images/Thumb_Ben_Garvey4.jpg

This boat has lots of room for 5 people, fishing gear, dogs, coolers, and more. The garvey bow is a joy loading people and gear off the beach, and the shallow foerfoot allows the boat to be driven right up on the beach. The decking on the boat above has been modified from the original plans, which specify a recessed deck in the bow.

The Ben Garveys are stitch and glue plywood construction suited for the first-time builder.

Here's the designer's web site: http://www.dhylanboats.com/

More pictures here: http://www.emcrosbyboatworks.com/Ben_Garvey.htm (http://www.emcrosbyboatworks.com/Ben_Garvey.htm)

Plans from WB here: http://www.woodenboatstore.com/19-Ben-Garvey/productinfo/400-127/

[Peter Eikenberry]

Another site you may want to look at just to get ideas. Glen-L. Here's the link to their page on stitch and glue boats. https://www.boatdesigns.com/departments.asp?dept=16.

Stitch and glue is probably the simplest, easiest way to go, is inexpensive compared to other methods (no boat is cheap) and easy for a beginner. There are some dory plans on this page since you seem to be set on some type of dory.

Everyone has given you good sound advice so far. But remember, as was said several times, Lake Pend Oreille, Lake Coeur d'Alene, Priest lake, are all big water for a small boat. Plan ahead.

[paulv]

I'm not set on anything design wise. I'm really appreciating all the advice. Also I'm more interested in fishing the multiples of smaller lakes around and would also like to have a shallower draft boat that would allow for some river use, hence the dory interests. I don't know a lot about boat design honestly and there may be boats better suited to my needs than a semi dory.

Also I know it takes a big boat with a steep v botom to fish the big lakes around here. However such a boat would be impractical for the smaller waters and rivers I'd like to fish. Any use on these bigger lakes would be choosing a ramp in the area that we would fish and fish very close to that area. I think a smaller boat under 20 foot would be quite safe for fishing inside of one bays per day.

I love being on the rivers down at Lewiston ID, the snake and clearwater, not the white water parts. There is awesome fishing down there for steelhead, salmon, small mouth and sturgeon. there are also lots of beaches to camp on.

Anyway hope that sheds some light on my intended use. thanks for all the help.

[paulv]

yeah that looks like a great boat, ill look into it further. do you currently own one?

[Richard Jones]

Sam Devlin designed a couple of garvey types hulls as duck hunting skiffs. One's 14', the other 17'. I built the 14' version about 10 years ago. Still have it, still love it. I fiddled a bit with the foredeck for more sitting. The bottom up by the bow has some V-section to cut the chop. It's stable, lots of room and easy to build (stitch and glue). I only wish I'd put a 20-25 hp on the back instead of 15hp. I had two kids, but with your 3, you're better off with the 17' version. I've never had it out in really rough water, but I would imagine that it'd be alright. Good luck! Sam Devlin is on the internet.

[TerryLL]

yeah that looks like a great boat, ill look into it further. do you currently own one?

I don't own a Big Ben, but I've been tempted to build one from time to time. I contacted the designer a couple years ago about a larger version, about 22 feet, but never pursued the design beyond the dream stage.

I wouldn't hesitate to take the Big Ben out on any of the big lakes in the area. In my opinion it's capable of handling the conditions here. But it's always wise to stay within your skill and confidence level, so gaining experience on the smaller lakes and rivers is the right approach.

[2MeterTroll]

well i would say since you are in Idaho and you want lakes and rivers most of which are fast. and you want kids, wife and such like, gear stowage and a boat you can motor around in. look to the locals, build a big drift boat with a bit less rocker to it. shes got high sides, you can deck them, they are maneuverable, good in fast water, stable, shallow draft, made of local materials and easy to fit a cover on. I believe there is one that sails around on the Columbia and Willamette so you can even step a mast and sail it. oh and its an easy build to medium build depending on if you want plank or ply.

[paulv]

Well the drift boat is what started my interest in boats. I see them everywhere. I initially thought of building one. However I want something that is at home on the smaller lakes and such. From what I've read Outboards are really an afterthought with driftboats. Is that not the case?

at this point its not practical for me to have a boat that just drifts. the logistics of getting back to the rig compounded with all the effort of getting the family ready just seems too much.

So is there a larg drift boat design that will do it all?

Will a drift boat with a 10hp max rating go upstream or fight a headwind with a load?

[paulv]

http://www.devlinboat.com/honker.htm

the honker looks fun!
Think it would really need a 70hp?

[2MeterTroll]

Well the drift boat is what started my interest in boats. I see them everywhere. I initially thought of building one. However I want something that is at home on the smaller lakes and such. From what I've read Outboards are really an afterthought with driftboats. Is that not the case?

at this point its not practical for me to have a boat that just drifts. the logistics of getting back to the rig compounded with all the effort of getting the family ready just seems too much.

So is there a larg drift boat design that will do it all?

Will a drift boat with a 10hp max rating go upstream or fight a headwind with a load?

well they where designed for oar and drifting so the rocker makes it so the boat can spin. but if you relax the rocker in the stern a bit and put in a transom they are a rather nice boat. you wont need anything over a 25 horse out board for a drift boat adding more is just dumb they are not meant to skip along the top of waves. they are meant to have the mid hull in the water. a long shaft OB is a bit more expensive but then you can keep much of the rocker and still have an motor. I like a little bit of keel on my drift boat but a dagger board in the bow is in some ways better for running in long straight lines ;) then you just pull it and beach the boat.

there are few better boats for fast water.

plans Oh ya there are plans up the wazoo for drift boats just google it.
if you want to play with solid wood its gonna take some looking but there are folks who do them out of planks still.

IIRC you can get every thing from 9 to 30' (i think its a dory at 30')

[paulv]

anyone seen a plan similar to this boat

http://www.hydeoutdoors.com/boats/new/power-drifter

[htom]

I think you really need to think about two boats: one for yourself, a drifter, and one for your family. The requirements are very different, and I doubt that there is one large enough for your family that would be at all fun as a drifter. (For the family boat, I was thinking of a 19' or 22' Bartender, but that may be too big a project for a first boat.)

[Ethan]

My vote still goes to the 19' Big Ben Garvey.

http://www.emcrosbyboatworks.com/images/Thumb_Ben_Garvey4.jpg

/ (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/19-Ben-Garvey/productinfo/400-127/)

I love this version of the Big Ben. Anyone with kids and/or dogs realizes the advantages of those mods!

Great contribution, Terry!

[Downrigger]

I love this version of the Big Ben. Anyone with kids and/or dogs realizes the advantages of those mods!

Great contribution, Terry!

I agree! Great looking boat. Anyone know of similar plans for ply on frame?

[paulv]

Words of advice, a sixteen foot boat with five people,
even though some of them are small is not the best
idea. I don't think the wife would feel safe in a sixteen
on a lake of any size.

I would be looking at 19 to 21 footers. Maybe some
thing with a small cuddy.

For safety with small children on board, I think 25hp
would be the minimum. If the weather changes, you
need to be able to go.

Something like this:

https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=363

https://www.glen-l.com/designs/workboat/workboat-images/dsn-swc.jpg

It would be easy to add a canvas cuddy to this
for dry storage and the kids could get out of the
sun or rain if need be.


Why do they put the motor in a well? It seems like a waste of space. Are there advantages of having it there?

[Charles Burgess]

I think you really need to think about two boats: one for yourself, a drifter, and one for your family. The requirements are very different, and I doubt that there is one large enough for your family that would be at all fun as a drifter. (For the family boat, I was thinking of a 19' or 22' Bartender, but that may be too big a project for a first boat.)

I'll second that opinion: you need 2 boats.

The 19 Big Ben Garvey for lakes; a dory or skiff for the rivers.

The nice thing about both is that if you take your time and build them well, when your family outgrows one or the other you can sell it for a reasonable price. Building these types of boats is not difficult at all and both come with great DIY books available through the WB Store.

[peter radclyffe]

Why do they put the motor in a well? It seems like a waste of space. Are there advantages of having it there?
so you can toast bread on the top of it

[Charles Burgess]

Why do they put the motor in a well? It seems like a waste of space. Are there advantages of having it there?

It changes the center of effort from the stern to a point further forward in the hull form. What are the advantages? It all depends on what the purpose of the boat is - how it is used. In some cases it is a disadvantage.

For a workboat that mostly goes from dock to a larger boat or around the bay tending crab pots and other such things, a outboard engine in a well provides the benefits of an inboard engine without the cost and weight, while also giving you a real rudder that will in turn provide better control of the boat.

[2MeterTroll]

CB i think we have a diffrent idea of crabbing and boat use. but that explanation works.

I would also add that having a motor in a well also gives you two control points in the boat. so you can pivot the boat around either point by laying the rudder over or turning the out board in the well. most folks dont do the former but for me the amount of control this gives is a joy.

[Charles Burgess]

CB i think we have a diffrent idea of crabbing and boat use. but that explanation works.

I would also add that having a motor in a well also gives you two control points in the boat. so you can pivot the boat around either point by laying the rudder over or turning the out board in the well. most folks dont do the former but for me the amount of control this gives is a joy.

Different strokes for different folks ;) That is what makes being a NA so interesting. I spend a lot of time studying how people use a boat...especially workboats. The habits of commercial fishermen and other mariners is absolutely fascinating to me. I was speaking more about my observations along the northern Gulf Coast (although I have done such studying in New England and Chesapeake waters as well).

Your mention of finessing the control of the boat via the outboard in the well with the rudder is a fine art of seamanship and piloting skill.

[2MeterTroll]

thank you.

[TerryLL]

I suspect the OB well arrangement seen in many dory-skiff designs had something to do with the evolution of dory-skiffs from narrow-transom power dories. In those dories the well was positioned forward of the transom where there was sufficient bottom width to install the well. As engines got larger transoms got wider to support the weight, but the well was retained.

Many dory-skiff designs retain the sharply raked transom, which is a difficult place to hang an outboard, so the well is a workable solution. That sharply raked transom is a joy in following seas, especially when running at displacement speeds. The oncoming waves lift the transom and propel the boat forward, instead of coming up and over the OB notch in the transom.

[Spokaloo]

Pacific City dories have a very extensive history. They were designed to be surf launched off of Cape Kiwanda, heading out to sea each day through the shore break. This resulted in the highly upturned bow, deep flare, and flat bottoms. Tracy O'Brien's PC dories, Jeff Spira's, and Ray's River dories all have plans or kits available depending on what you want to build.

One thing I like about the dory setup for your area is that you can hang a jackplate on the back, then alternate between a prop outboard, a jet outboard, and no motor at all. The PC boats will take whitewater both under power and under oar if you decide to run up past Asotin to get after the fish. You could even get up in the Grand Rhonde if you keep the motor off and the boat light for that insane smallmouth bite they get up there.

Conversely they like water as rough as you can take. They pound pretty badly, but they are meant to take the abuse, so the occupants will be worn out long before the boat will. I'd be comfortable taking a PC out in a thunderstorm on Pend Oreille with 4 footers any day of the week. Plus as they were designed to be commercial fishing boats, they tolerate large volumes of weight very well.

I do think I'd err on the side of more horsepower, however, to give you a little better range when the boat is full, but thats just my opinion.

Im up in Spokane, and love to talk boats anytime.

E

[SawmillBrook]

Devlin's two Garveys, the Snow Goose and the Honker are excellent options. However, you may want to review your motor options. I built the Snow Goose, and I have the max recommended on it - 40.

The Snow Goose handles beautifully... speed, safety, steering, shallow water capability, blah... love this boat.

Good luck and have fun in the process.

[michigangeorge]

Here's a couple more ideas for you: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/bowdidge/index.htm for light and easy to build.
http://www.fao.org//docrep/007/y5649e/y5649e00.htm for seaworthy and economical but not as good for beaching.
Best of luck.