Christmas Wherry/Daisy 15/Hvalsoe 16

[MG IN NB]

I'm new to the forum and am seeking advice before I build a sail boat - and I'm new to sailing (just finishing a Bear Mountain Prospector now). Priorities are: #1 beautiful lapstrake boat FUN to sail #2 beautiful lapstrake boat FUN to row. I'll start with some questions - I'm sure you'll know what I'm getting at. 1.Round bottom vs dory bottom regarding stability? 2. Sail area - size of sail varies from mid 70's to 100+ sq ft for boats of similar length but different weight (ie Skylark @ 88 sq ft vs Christmas Wherry @ 102 sq ft - how will this really affect performance? I want a beautiful boat that's simple and fun to use (like the looks of the lug sail) and will feel safe for when the wife and dog come along. Boat will mainly be used on fairly protected waters of 60 mile long headpond above dam. Want a boat that's fun to row for 2-3 hours at a time. Thanks for any input.

[Thorne]

Welcome to the Forum!

Great choice of boats and a clear explanation of what you need it for -- classic "sail & oar" functionality.

Are you considering ever putting a small outboard on the boat? If absolutely not, you could also look at some of the double-ender designs by Oughtred and White. And the only other change might be for something a foot or two longer to give a longer waterline and better speed.

[MG IN NB]

Thorne,
Absolutely no motor! I have a 12' aluminum with a 9.8 to beat around. I do like the looks of the other types you mention. I'm a little concerned with getting carried away with a longer boat. I expect to sail mostly myself but occasionally with two (don't forget my dog as well) so ease of handling as well as cost/duration of build is a consideration. I also like the look of the Matinicus Double Ender but wonder how it compares to the Christmas Wherry. The Daisy would obviously be the easiest to build but again, how it handles will be a deciding factor. Test drives are tough to get. I could go out and test drive every truck on the market in an afternoon and decided which one I like but we don't have that luxury with boats!

[Thorne]

Eric H. posts regularly on this forum, so I won't say much about his designs except that they are lovely and functional. And you are right about the increased length, it adds to the windage and cost with only a small increase in speed.

You should get lots of advice, so have fun! Just remember that many commercial small boat designers give great support either via their own web groups/forums, or directly via email or phone like Arch Davis -- so that might have an impact on what you decide to build. Others give support via books and other builders web forums, like Oughtred.

[James McMullen]

Since sail & oar boats is my very cup of tea, I'll weigh in here and tell you that every boat is a compromise, and you're going to have to decide whether you want to weight her towards most efficient rowing or most effective sailing. There's lots of choices that are okay. . . . . but after lots of testing, my own favorite compromise are the lugger yawl rigged Oughtred double ended beach boats known as the Ness Yawl, Arctic Tern and Tirrik. Very safe and seaworthy sail & oar boats suitable for camp cruising, an absolute delight under sail, even in stronger conditions, but still not such a dog to row that you really mind a few hours under potato power. They're also breathtakingly pretty--but that's just a bonus to their handiness. They just have a better blend of performance characteristics under both sail and oars than any other skiff, dory, faering, whitehall or wherry that I have ever tried.

This weekend I will be launching my Rowan in company with a Ness Yawl for a 40+ mile two day circumnavigation of Lopez Island. It looks like the wind forecast is for 10-15 knots SW all weekend, but we would do it anyways under oars alone if it was a dead calm.

Here's a link to some trip diaries of previous adventures to whet your appetite:
Lake Ozette by Sail & Oar (http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=622)
67 miles in 4 days (http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=610)
Sail & Oar in the San Juans (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2172533&posted=1#post2172533)

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/30029/2719202720088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2719202720088484686EwRxts)

[MG IN NB]

Appreciate the input James. I do like the look of these (they are obviously very popular) - just wonder about the two sail thing since I'll be a rookie sailor.
I tell you what I'd like to see in an issue of WoodenBoat or Small Boats is a comparison of boats like these which give comments like you describe - not simply generalized compliments but testimonials from people who actually have or have spent a great deal of time in them and will give true pros and cons.

[James McMullen]

Two sails is actually easier than one sail, amigo--or at least it is when they're rigged in the form of a cat-yawl. This yawl rig was the traditional rig of the North Atlantic fishing fleets for a good reason.

[johngsandusky]

Not having sailed any of those designs, but several other sail and oar types, I'll weigh in. Unless the wind is consistently strong where you sail, a bit more sail is better than a bit less. Most daysailors don't go out in strong breezes, you'll probably find yourself wishing for more sail more often than less. And you can always reef (get a sail with reefs).

[Eric Hvalsoe]

This thread may be dead, but I'll make a comment or two.
I am not familiar with the other two designs in the header, although I have now heard reference several times to the Christmas Wherry, must be a pretty boat. James is very dialed in with his boat, and small boat cruising in general. The Oughtred double enders are vastly proven little vessels. However, I would speak up for transom sterned boats, like the 16. For a given length, seems to me the transom stern gives you more stowability, comfort, and flexibility. Think about stashing those 8' oars under the thwarts. I think there may be a presumption amongst some folks that a double ender is inherently more seaworthy than a transom stern, which of course, I would disagree with. I like the bouyancy and protection that my strongly raking transom provides, and I have been out in some pretty severe conditions, including sustained bursts of surfing. Of course, it is much about what leads up to that pretty transom.
The Hvalsoe 16 is a true round bottom hull, I use 9 strakes - many parts = complexity and expense. Still, it is truly an open boat and various aspects of its construction can be said to be relatively simple. I'd split the 16 right down the middle as a 50/50 boat, rowing and sailing. I would say Rowan and the Ness yawls are more capacious (except for that sharp stern) camp/cruisers, and are more than 50% sailers. Of course, I've never been in James' boat, so I am not speaking from experience in that regard. Hope I have not screwed up! They are all wonderful small boats. The Ness yawls have fewer strakes and seem to be aimed towards plywood construction.

[James McMullen]

I'd say Eric is pretty much right about the sail/row ratio, with my boat being more of a 60/40 in favor of sailing, but still very practical for row cruising. As far as the capacity for a given length, I would argue that this is a somewhat arbitrary way to compare boats. For similar boats of a given displacement, the one with the pointed stern is going to be longer, with all of the advantages and disadvantages that entails.

I think stowing your oars under the thwarts instead of having them handy for use at very short notice is a sub-optimal solution.

For me, I'll have to stick with the extra pointy boats because Katie thinks they're cuter--and you all know how vitally important it is that your wife approve of your boat if you want to stay out of trouble. Transoms are okay too, and since I've also built several small prams, I still have a fairly balanced ratio of flat ends to pointy ends in my repertoire.

Plus, these double enders do work awfully well in the churning froth. Here's a link to yet another Sail & Oar adventure involving not one, not two, but three lapstrake double-ended open boats out betwixt Scylla and Charybdis.
Around Lopez I. Clockwise (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2232979#post2232979)

[rbgarr]

Do any of these fit the bill?

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail.php#12ply136

[Ewan G Kennedy]

I have built a few small boats and the Christmas Wherry is by far the best for seaworthyness. Last month Mr Campbell and I successfully circumnavigated Torsa Island against a four knot tide in her.

I have rigged her sprit rather than the lug that W Simmons suggests. This needs the board much further forward, so be warned.

If you decide to do this let me know.

Bye for noo

Ewan

[MG IN NB]

Regarding Paul Gartside's "Skylark" - absolutely gorgeous boat! Quick plug here. A few years ago I had the good fortune to attend a class (Traditional Lapstrake Construction) at the WoodenBoat School in Brooklin Maine. I took my wife, two daughters and a close family friend. We camped on site in 100+F degree weather every day for the week. It was a fabulous course and superb family holiday - I would highly recommend it to anyone who is considering taking a course there! On site they had a "Skylark" which I fell in love with (how could you not?). The traditional cedar planks with copper rivets is what I love most but feel that glued ply will be most practical for me. The Oughtred designs for coastal camping are beautiful but as much as I'd love to sail away for 3-4 days or longer, the reality is that most of my sailing will be 2-4 hours or maybe a full day (until I can find someone else to share the pleasure with), and that's why I feel that something 15'-16' would do all that I need it to do.
Ewan,
I've seen your boat on Walt's site and it's great to hear from an owner. At this point I'm still undecided but with strong feelings toward my original thoughts of the Christmas Wherry or Eric's 16.
I do appreciate the input offered here - and definitely take all comments into serious consideration.

Michael in Fredericton New Brunswick

[Daniel Noyes]

Also get a copy of John Gardners "Dory Book" at your local library.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[MG IN NB]

Ewan,
Do you ever row your Christmas Wherry for the sole purpose of rowing? If so, I'd be interested to get your feedback. Also, what is your opinion regarding sailing vs rowing comparison on this boat. Aside from your comment about needing to move the board forward, how is it for sailing - compared to other similar sized boats you've used?

[esingleman]

Just because it hasn't been mentioned, I'd take a look at the Penobscott 17 by Arch Davis as well. Although personally I think the Hvalsoe 16 is the best looking boat of those mentioned so far with the Caledonia Yawl a close second.

One thing to consdier in these open boats maybe is floatation. I built my Pooduck skiff to learn how to sail. For the first six years I never capsized her. Well, I found out that all it takes is a gust of wind in the middle of a gybe with your main sheet cleated to end up in the drink. Stupid move I know, but hey you live and learn. Since she is a fully open boat so she flooded with water inside one inch from the gunwhale. I was bailing from outside the boat with my bucket as fast as I could to make sure more water was getting out than what the waves were spilling in. Usually I have SWMBO with me for ballast and things like that don't normally happen. So, the answer for easier recovery from capsize is either built in floatation compartments or bouyancy bags so the boat doesn't fill so much with water (that's why the Penobscott 17 could be attractive, also I have seen the Caledonia Yawl built with floatation compartments as well). Also a rope ladder over the transom is a great help in getting back in, that's next on my project list.

Just a thought.

[MG IN NB]

I actually have the study plans for the Penobscott 14 & 17. It's true there are many great choices out there but that's exactly why I find getting opinions from owners who have actual experience with the specific boats most helpful.

[James McMullen]

. . . . .getting opinions from owners who have actual experience with the specific boats. . . . .

Of course the problem with this is the "proud Papa" syndrome. Everyone thinks their own kids are the best looking, most obedient and well mannered. . . all objective evidence to the contrary.

But I myself am clearly immune to this syndrome and can therefore tell you that building anything other than one of Oughtred's double-ender designs will simply lead to a lifetime of despair, heartbreak and un-requited boat envy. :D

[Eric Hvalsoe]

mmm, how can a boat be recommended if the 'board does not seem to be in the right place? Or did I hear that wrong about the Christmas Wherry, or was that something about changing the rig. OK James, you sort of got me on the oars, but when solo I do sometimes carry the extra set tucked nicely under the thwarts and forward - I won't even try to explain the Rube Goldberg torpedo tube oar stowers that help me tuck the extra set away when the forepeak is chock full of gear. There are no other 16 owners that are regular forumites, yet. But I do refer inquiries from individuals to other 16 owners as regards the boat's performance. I do a lot of beta testing on my own boat. It is all rather subjective but there is real experience there to mine, amongst all of us small boat users.

[davebrown]

i don't have time to search this site this second, but i seem to recall that the christmas wherry is part of this page, and might have some good manuals with it. the duck trap might be good for you too. check the link:
http://www.duck-trap.com/2002dtw.html