john dory sailing rigs

[jon_m_campbell]

apparently the plans for oughtred's john dory have 9 different options for the sailing rig. does anyone know of a way to look at them w/o buying the plans? or at least before buying the plans.

i'm building a gunning dory, same length, and would love find plans for a lugsail - dipping, preferably, but possibly balanced or standing - that i could use.

francois vivier has some nice looking possibilities - does anyone know of any other comparable lug rig designs?

[kenjamin]

Sailrite has stock sail kits for two of the rigs. You might check with them about those rigs – one is the sprit and the other is the standing lug I believe. The folks at Sailrite are very helpful and sewing your own is easier than you might think. I have the John Dory plans with the nine different rigs but there's not a whole bunch of detail to the drawings as far as the bits and pieces you need for the different rigs.

[keyhavenpotterer]

four of the rigs are sketched here

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/John%20Dory.pdf

Brian

[Todd Bradshaw]

Oughtred has some of the most nicely proportioned lugsails you will see and most are very similar to this one. It's a balanced lug and the mast is raked similarly to the sail's luff. Making the luff angle echo the mast angle, whether they are plumb or raked, is pretty much standard practice for most balanced lugs. On a dipper, I think you could leave the luff raked and make the mast either plumb or raked without a problem. This seems to be a pretty nicely performing profile in terms of head angle. I don't think I'd make it much steeper and it could be made somewhat flatter if you want more of a squaresail look, but you might lose a little bit of performance upwind due to a slightly reduced amount of leading edge and the lift that it's supposed to generate. This plan can be scaled up as needed for more sail area. Just remember that if, for example, you were multiply all the linear measurements of the edges and diagonals by say 160%, the sail area figure (59.15 sq. ft.) would need to be multiplied by 160% twice to yield the new sail area (151.42 sq. ft.). For planning purposes, the Center of effort for this sail is located 4.9' above and 3.97' aft of the sail's tack corner. These dimensions would be increased by the same percentage as the other linear measurements when scaling up the design.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Oughtred%20lug.jpg

I haven't seen the plan for that boat and all its possible rigs, but I do have plans for about 200 sails in my other computer, many of them lugsails. If you need something in particular, let me know and I'll see if I have one that you could use or adapt.

[James McMullen]

Oughtred has some of the most nicely proportioned lugsails you will see

Ditto, that!:D What could be prettier than this? (a completely unbiased view, of course)
http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/43936/2627763700088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2627763700088484686fyScyS)

[jon_m_campbell]

thanks, kenjamin, for the tip on sailrite. that's the first time i had seen them - i'll keep them in mind when i get to sail making.

and thanks todd. if i were going to start with that sail and change it into a dipper, would the foot need to be lengthened forward?

i've heard that dipping lugs are "powerful" and "efficient". powerful, i presume, refers to the sail's ability in light wind, but i'm not sure i understand "efficient". does that refer to better windward ability than a balanced or standing lug?

and how would any of the lugs compare to the conventional leg-o-mutton rig of the swampscott dory, especially in terms of sailing up wind?

[Peerie Maa]

thanks, kenjamin, for the tip on sailrite. that's the first time i had seen them - i'll keep them in mind when i get to sail making.

and thanks todd. if i were going to start with that sail and change it into a dipper, would the foot need to be lengthened forward?
That sail is nicely proportioned and could do either. The Cornish Luggers often reefed by moving the standing lug mizzen forward to the foremast as a dipping lug, and setting a smaller standing lug mizzen, so that one should work as well.

i've heard that dipping lugs are "powerful" and "efficient". powerful, i presume, refers to the sail's ability in light wind, but I'm not sure i understand "efficient". does that refer to better windward ability than a balanced or standing lug? Very powerful reaching and running, they are a lifting sail like the sail on a sailboard, so can be carried for longer. They set in clean air on both tacks, and are never wrapped around the mast, so always adopt the shape that the sail maker intended. Therefore more efficient than sails that do not dip.

and how would any of the lugs compare to the conventional leg-o-mutton rig of the swampscott dory, especially in terms of sailing up wind? Leg of mutton has more luff length than a lug of the same area, so will have more drive when on the wind.

[Daniel Noyes]

and how would any of the lugs compare to the conventional leg-o-mutton rig of the swampscott dory, especially in terms of sailing up wind?

Congrats on the Gunning dory, they are a wonderfull boat

great rig question, and if we're to believe 100+ yrs of refinment and development, the answer is not as good.
The long boom dory sail realy is as wonderfull and unique as the dory hull and developed in tandem with these boats.

If you own the boat you can rig it however you please, there are several resons why not to rig a dipping lug on a dory, Dipping lug is time consuming/ complicated to tack, this is a big negative on a light dory hull but not a problem on a traditional, heavier lug rigged hull.

The lug rig sets flying on the mast, when it luffs it is a extreme transition from pressure in the sail to no pressure, much like a luffing jib, not a big deal on a wide heavily built european fishing craft. The leg-o-mutton sets behind the mast, the sail is very good at feathering and spilling wind in gusts. This capability is very important on a light narrow boat like a dory.

The Lug sets on a spar at the mast head this increases weight aloft, not a big deal on a heavy relatively stable hull. The dory rig has no upper spar and a very thin light boom that is steeply raked, this keeps weight low and helps keep a narrow boat like a dory quick and stable.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yep, that's pretty much the deal. "Power" and "powerful" tend to have fairly specific meanings in many cases when dealing with sails. They often indicate that a sail or sail configuration will create more brute force to push a beamy or heavy boat along and through waves or chop. This may very well be at the expense of some top-end speed. For example, a sail which was designed for a lightly-built, high-speed beach catamaran will usually be built with its draft amount, draft position and mainsail entry curve designed for high speed sailing on a hull that slides through the water without a lot of force needed and which is light and quick to accelerate. If you stick that same fast sail on a beamy cruising boat, it won't perform like a Hobie Cat. In fact, it probably won't perform as well as it did with it's original, plain old Dacron factory mainsail. The reason is that the catamaran sail is designed more for speed than for power. Its shape has trouble getting the wider, heavier boat up to cruising speed and top speed on the cruiser is most likely too low for most of the design elements on the cat sail to even come into play. Though capable of fast speeds, the cat sail doesn't generate sufficient power for that hull.

Conversely, if we stick the cruiser main on a Hobie cat, it will have plenty of power to start the boat moving (sail draft deeper, draft location farther aft, mainsail entry angle most likely somewhat flatter) but just about the time we approach "fun speed", the sail and the boat will start to stall. That sail has more power than the hull needs to get moving, but those elements in its design limit its ability to be the "afterburners" on a catamaran.

So, you have to be careful when talking about power and powerful sails and watch for the other context. In the case of a lugsail, it will often indicate that a relatively modest amount of sail area may be enough to push a fairly heavy or beamy hull, or simply that it's a sail which is better at moving a load than it is at high-speed sailing. Sort of a pickup truck vs. sports car thing. For a dipping lug, it may simply refer to the fact that dippers are among the few small non-bermuda sail types which don't have spars or masts messing with the shape half the time. The sail and it's shape are free to do their thing as designed. Obviously, in a "what can you do with the wind we give you" scenario, this doesn't hurt their efficiency either.

I really don't think there are enough dipping lugsails out there for most of us to have a particularly good handle on what they can and can not do well, or what tweaks and changes might produce a slightly better one. Since we have a free-standing luff, well out in front of the mast and it's turbulence, I wonder whether or not it would be improved by cutting and shaping it a bit more like a jib luff, with allowances made for luff sag (which will happen to some degree, no matter what) and draft creation and placement? The luff's angle and foot length should also be changable as needed. If lengthening the foot in order to have a better place to anchor the tack corner helps, I don't know of a reason that it couldn't be done. Whether it's a great idea to max out the foot length whenever possible on a dipper, I can't tell you.

[jon_m_campbell]

The long boom dory sail realy is as wonderfull and unique as the dory hull and developed in tandem with these boats.

The Lug sets on a spar at the mast head this increases weight aloft, not a big deal on a heavy relatively stable hull.

dan,

both of those seem like good points to me. the weight aloft is an obvious problem, and it makes sense that the incremental devolpment of a hull and rig over the course of years will tend towards optimization. i'm intrigued by the idea of the lug sail, but a big part of me is saying that for a first build, i shouldn't stray too far from what has already been proven - trust to experience.

i've got two questions about the leg-o-mutton rig though:
1- can you reef it? (i've gotten some good ideas in this forum w.r.t. that.)
2- how close to the wind can you sail?

i've looked at your website before. you've probably got good answers for both of those questions.

[kenjamin]

As a relative novice to sailing, anything I say about the performance of the nine different rigs that come with the John Dory plans must be taken with a huge grain of salt. However, of all the rig options offered by Mr. Oughtred for his John Dory by far the best looking one is the sprit rig. Trust me, I have an Art degree.:D

Additionally, the sprit is postioned high enough so you don't get wacked in the head with it on a tack and all the sticks fit nicely inside the boat when stored. Looks like it could go well to windward too, eh?

[jon_m_campbell]

todd,

i like your notion that we need to experiment more with these dippers before ruling them out. that sounds like the kind of thing an amateur could work on from a garage workshop.

i'm toying with the idea of trying to make the sails myself, but there is obviously alot more to that process than i had realized. do you have a good book for beginners that you can recommend?

you've probably seen it before, but i was reading in chapelle's "american small sailing craft" today about the new orleans luggers, the only american boat where the dipping lug was successfully used apparently. he says that they only bothered to dip when they would be on the same tack for an extended period. for situations that required tacking back and forth, they had a simpler makeshift arrangement. "the boats were fitted with long horeses for both tack and sheet.... when on a tack that would have had the fore part of the sail aback against the mast, the tack of the sail was hauled out to windwared on its long horse and held there by fall.... the powerful mainsheet was then utilized to flatten the foot of the sail as much as was possible, and this created a very flat sail, standing almost entirely to windward of the mast.... the relatively great beam of the hull, with its fullness and the bow on deck, permitted such long horses so that this setting was practical." that arrangement probably wouldn't work on a dory, because of the fine bow, but i thought it was interesting. if it works, it would address the main criticism that most people seem to have with the dipping lug.

[jon_m_campbell]

the sprit is postioned high enough so you don't get wacked in the head with it on a tack and all the sticks fit nicely inside the boat when stored.

i read a post from someone else with this same gunning dory, who suggested using a sprit boom with the leg-o-mutton sail for that very reason: he never got hit in the head. that's one of the ideas that i'm mulling over in all of this.

though i did see some good pictures from a back issue of wb magazine, in an article on the swampscott, and there seems to be quite alot of clearance under the normal boom, especially if the crew in sitting on the floor.

[James McMullen]

I don't have any experience with dipping lugs except for the uber-traditional, canvas lugsails on the ships longboats, but I now have lots of experience with a modern dacron balance lug.

No offense, Mr. Noyes, but I think you are categorically wrong with regards to the modern, developed incarnation of the lugsail as utilized by such folks as Nigel Irens, Ben Fuller and myself. The shape and performance of these sails upwind and down are beyond reproach for unstayed rigs in Sail & Oar type boats. I understand your love for the tradition of the dory rig, Dan, but you really ought to go for a ride in a boat like Ran Tan or Rowan or Romilly, all boats with modern shaped lugsails, before you claim the traditional, long boomed dory rig is better than them. Such case has not been my own experience. In fact, I can't think of any rigs that require as much stick per square foot of sail area as the almost equilateral triangle traditional dory sail. Furthermore, most of these rigs also have a small jib, and jibs are pernicious nonsense on a sail & oar boat that needs to be able to get the entire rig up and down easily while under way.

The longer sticked rig, with or without stays needed to set up jib tension is harder to stow, slower to hoist or drop sail, and clumsier to reef--with the added disadvantage when reefing a triangular sail where the CE of the sail moves position compared to the more rectangular planform of the lugsail. I can go from the whole rig down in the boat for rowing to all sail drawing in under 2 minutes with the lug rig. My boat has a modern shaped CB and rudder as well as a nicely shaped dacron sail, and she will point with genoa-jib toting sloops.

Here I am with one reef in, pointing higher and catching up to a 35 foot-ish cruising sailboat last Saturday in Rosario Strait.
http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/43936/2627763700088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2627763700088484686fyScyS)

[jon_m_campbell]

Leg of mutton has more luff length than a lug of the same area, so will have more drive when on the wind.

nick,

can you explain how that works? why is a longer luff advantageous when going to windward?

i looked up some pictures of the cornish luggers after reading your post. pretty. do you sail one? or have you?

[Todd Bradshaw]

This is a pretty good discussion. I doubt we will all end in agreement, but there are probably a lot of other things we wouldn't all agree on as well. Such is life.....

The nutshell answer on going to windward is that it is generally believed that the longer the luff of a sail is, the more aerodynamic lift it creates and more lift means better windward performance - thus the tall, skinny sails on most modern racers (AC boats with their 110' masts, high-aspect multihull sails, etc.). At the same time, we need to take into account that there are a whole bunch of other factors that can and do affect the performance and windward ability of boats, so it's not usually just a matter of putting a sail on with a longer luff and instantly sailing higher. Also, it often seems like every damned thing on a sailboat is some sort of compromise. You might gain lift with a taller, longer-luffed rig and lose some ability to keep the boat under control in heavy air - or some other trade-off. There is also always the question of "How much am I really gaining?" Half a knot or a couple degrees of pointing angle may be a big deal in strict class racing, but out sailing on your own, you probably wouldn't even notice it. With all these variables and the addition of the skipper's sailing and trimming style, the cut of that specific sail, fore and aft trim of the boat, tacking techniques, etc., performance difference estimates between rationally-designed, differing rigs on the same hull can't usually be much better than very broad ones.

I could be wrong, but I really get the feeling that if you are going to put a dipping lug on a boat, you should pretty much plan on using it that way. I don't see a lot of practical reasons to have one, but I could certainly justify one for it's novelty and cosmetic purposes. Spending much energy trying to rig it so that you can avoid dipping strikes me as a fairly decent case for using a different rig in the first place.

One thing I'd really like to see on the forum would be an end to any comments about getting hit in the head with a boom - especially one that's about the size of a glorified closet pole. Learning to deal with the boom, high or low, is generally very easy, part of sailing and part of learning to be a good sailer. Plus, most boats will sail better with a low boom. Yes, everybody gets bonked a time or two during their first season - it's part of learning. Unless you're sailing a Starboat where a boom about the size of a beach cat mast will cut you off at the waist, it really doesn't hurt much. If you're still at all worried about getting bonked at the end of that first season, you need some sailing lessons. Of all the knit-picky little details that most of us fret over when building a boat, a boom that might be low enough to hit us in the head should be WAY DOWN at the bottom of the list, well beyond things like what color to make our ugly registration numbers. If the boom comes at you - duck. Better yet, learn to control it on its way in and on its way out. It won't be a problem and you'll be a better sailor. If you want to use a sprit-boom on a sail, do so for the serious qualities that it offers - a fairly light boom with the ability to easily adjust sail draft, its self-vanging nature, automatically controlling upper sail twist (which has both a good side and a bad side), a fairly light mast that will usually handle a lot of upper taper, etc. These are far more important than extra head clearance for inattentive sailors. Rant over.

I don't sail a dory, so I can't tell you much about their performance with various rigs, If I were to build one, I'd probably do it with a gunning-dory-style Leg-O-Mutton and small jib, just because the profile is drop dead gorgeous. This boat belongs to a forumite, sorry I don't remember who it is, but I saved the picture from a post a couple years ago because I really think it's one of the prettiest sailplan profiles I've ever seen. If I had a dory, I'd have an awfully hard time convincing myself not to do something very similar, only I'd build the sails with 12" wide panels and mitre-cut the jib. Instant classic!

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/f87c946c.jpg

...and no, the jib doesn't really do a hell of a lot, but it gives the crew something to do, probably helps a bit with performance and tacking and looks really nice.

Building your sail(s) and learning to build your sail(s) are two different things. The physical work part of building one is fairly straight-forward, kind of tedious at times, but not particularly difficult. Learning to design them is a much more difficult task. "The Sailmaker's Apprentice" has become the bible for folks interested in traditional sail construction and is certainly worth every penny. However, even after digesting all 400+ pages of it you will probably still have more questions about the design of your sails that you will answers. There are a whole bunch of details involved in designing the shape, designing the reinforcements and making it all work together, and just learning which ones are really important and which ones aren't is a huge task.

It's certainly possible to teach yourself. I have no formal training in sailmaking, grew up in the cornfields of central Illinois and had been building, repairing and selling sails for ten years before I ever even set foot in a real sail loft. But - you have to be a major-league detail freak, remember nearly everything you read (or at least where to find it again when you need it) and if you are planning on building less than 15-20 sails, it's probably not worth it. I also asked a lot of what were probably dumb questions and got patient advice from some folks who really knew their stuff.

The good news is that the sails available in kit form from places like Sailrite are "pre-thunk", as it were. You will be the assembler (and learn plenty) but the design work that will make it a good sail will already be in the shapes of the pieces when you get it - done by folks who know the ropes and are armed with some very expensive, state of the art computer sail plotting equipment. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that anyone who can follow directions try a kit sail. Scratch-building one of your own design as a first project is a very different story and chances are that it will either be a very long process to learn what you need to know before you start cutting or a pretty bad sail if you skip those steps.

[Daniel Noyes]

dan,

both of those seem like good points to me. the weight aloft is an obvious problem, and it makes sense that the incremental devolpment of a hull and rig over the course of years will tend towards optimization. i'm intrigued by the idea of the lug sail, but a big part of me is saying that for a first build, i shouldn't stray too far from what has already been proven - trust to experience.

i've got two questions about the leg-o-mutton rig though:
1- can you reef it? (i've gotten some good ideas in this forum w.r.t. that.)
2- how close to the wind can you sail?

i've looked at your website before. you've probably got good answers for both of those questions.

1- No... thats the simple answer, but the reall one is the L-O-M is such a versatile rig that it is able to handle a greater range of wind conditions than a lug type sail. The reefs I use on the Alpha dory are Main and jib- 15+- mph wind speed, main-25+- jib only over that, I have also considered taking the tack of the jib back to the mast for extreme conditions but have not had the need. Also keep in mind my main is about half again larger than in sq ft. sail area than the one gardner drew for the Alpha.

2- She will happily sail at 45 degrees making good speed, pinching above 30-35 the boat slows noticably.
here is a great video of going up wind and moving well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rd16s0rYE&feature=channel

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Daniel Noyes]

I don't have any experience with dipping lugs except for the uber-traditional, canvas lugsails on the ships longboats, but I now have lots of experience with a modern dacron balance lug.

No offense, Mr. Noyes, but I think you are categorically wrong with regards to the modern, developed incarnation of the lugsail as utilized by such folks as Nigel Irens, Ben Fuller and myself. The shape and performance of these sails upwind and down are beyond reproach for unstayed rigs in Sail & Oar type boats. I understand your love for the tradition of the dory rig, Dan, but you really ought to go for a ride in a boat like Ran Tan or Rowan or Romilly, all boats with modern shaped lugsails, before you claim the traditional, long boomed dory rig is better than them. Such case has not been my own experience. In fact, I can't think of any rigs that require as much stick per square foot of sail area as the almost equilateral triangle traditional dory sail. Furthermore, most of these rigs also have a small jib, and jibs are pernicious nonsense on a sail & oar boat that needs to be able to get the entire rig up and down easily while under way.

The longer sticked rig, with or without stays needed to set up jib tension is harder to stow, slower to hoist or drop sail, and clumsier to reef--with the added disadvantage when reefing a triangular sail where the CE of the sail moves position compared to the more rectangular planform of the lugsail. I can go from the whole rig down in the boat for rowing to all sail drawing in under 2 minutes with the lug rig. My boat has a modern shaped CB and rudder as well as a nicely shaped dacron sail, and she will point with genoa-jib toting sloops.

No offense taken James.
I do think Jon is interested in traditional type sails... he's considering a dipping lug! :)

I have had the opportunity to take my turn in a modern lug rigged cat yawl, (Ran Tan) and I felt it set a bit flat, litterally, the standing lug sail had been so tightly streached and battened to correct it's controll challenges in a narrow light boat...
("The lug rig sets flying on the mast, when it luffs it is a extreme transition from pressure in the sail to no pressure, much like a luffing jib, not a big deal on a wide heavily built european fishing craft but trick on a dory." )
...that I felt it lacked the shape, that creates it's famous historical "Power and Efficency" I didnt feel it was drawing as hard as it should for it's size. It seemed to be extremely efficient but very finicky about sail trim and angle of attack toward the wind. The boat was very managable, when I stepped aboard I was expecting a wild ride on such a light boat with a lug rigged sail but it was very managable.

About jib tension
The Leg-O-Moutton with jib is a triumph of dory design, the shrouds (side stays) are not necessary for good jib shape and forestay tension... let me explain.
When sailing off the wind the unstayed dory rig carries it's jib loose and full with very weak tension on the fore stay, this alows the sail to develope shape ,much like a dipping lug does, this increases power from the sail.
When sailing close to the wind a transformation occurrs. The main sail, with it's very long boom is sheeted in hard, the long boom puts a great amount of leverage and pull on the leach of the sail, this tension is transfered to the mast and then to the fore stay, so whenn close to the wind the jib tension is high and the sail sets flat for maximium pointing ability!

The long boom is having a similar effect as an adjustable backstay on a modern racing sloop Brilliant!

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Peerie Maa]

nick,

can you explain how that works? why is a longer luff advantageous when going to windward?
The technical language uses Span and Aspect ratio, but it all comes down to what happens at the ends of the lifting surface (wing, propeller blade or sail). Lift is generated by creating a difference in pressure between the back and face of the aerofoil. At the ends, the difference in pressure leaks away (causing the vertices that you can sometimes see) so the longer you can make the span, the less end losses and more lift for your area. That is why gliders have long slender wings.
There are some great images of these vertices:http://p.airliners.net/photos/photos/5/0/1/1091105.jpghttp://ksjtracker.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/wingtip-vortices.jpg

I looked up some pictures of the cornish luggers after reading your post. pretty. do you sail one? or have you?No Peerie Maa has a sliding gunter rig. However the working rig fitted to her predecessors was a form of dipping lug. Dipping lug is fairly well documented in the British maritime history genre.

[wtarzia]

...I have also considered taking the tack of the jib back to the mast for extreme conditions but have not had the need. ...

--- What an interesting idea! If the jib had a boom, this final reef would give you an "instant" oceanic sprit sail common on Hawaiian outriggers and used a variety of other small sporting outriggers -- an excellent heavy weather sail. -- Wade

[James McMullen]

I haven't gotten to sail on Ran Tan myself yet, there being an inconveniently large continent in the way of a quick jaunt, but I did notice that Ben's rig has an awful lot more battens than I use on Rowan. His sail has a higher aspect too.

One absolutely lovely thing about my cat-yawl rig is that issues about the boom bonking the helmsman in the head are completely and utterly irrelevant as the boom passes in front of me, no ducking required. But the absolute, premier, undoubted glory of the yawl is how the boat can effortlessly heave to, allowing a singlehander in a little open boat, far from land, in a rising wind to tuck in a reef in serene safety and comfort.
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/42597/2869347080088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2869347080088484686xLPMnS)

[wtarzia]

I don't have any experience with dipping lugs except for the uber-traditional, canvas lugsails on the ships longboats, but I now have lots of experience with a modern dacron balance lug....

--- James, what have you noticed about the effect of mast bending (unstayed mast) in putting unwanted draft into your lugsail? I am making stiffer wooden masts to improve on I hope my bendy windsurfer masts (one done, actually), which are bendy enough to watch changes in my standing-lugsail shape (I've seen the ten foot main mast bend 6 inches in the middle in 15-20 mph). Your rig is pretty big -- what is your mast diameter? 3 inches I am guessing?--Wade

[James McMullen]

My mast seems to be stiff enough that by the time it starts to bend appreciably, it's time to tuck in another reef which flattens her out again. I also have quick-adjusting outhaul tackles to jam cleats at both the peak of the yard and on the boom, with additional 2:1 purchase for outhaul tension at the reefing clew cringles so I can flatten my fores'l in a variety of ways. I also use a 6:1 with triples for my downhaul, not just to haul her tight, but partly just to get high resolution for micro-adjusting.

My foremast is solid spruce, to the scantlings provided by Iain Oughtred--four inches at the partners, tapering to 2 7/8 at the mast head if I remember correctly.

[jon_m_campbell]

rationally-designed

I like that term. I presume it refers to a design produced on a drawing board, rather than one that has been arrived at in a shop through a process of trial and error.

here's a picture of a boat, very similar to the gunning dory, by francois vivier.

http://www.vivierboats.com/albumsen/youkou_lili/YL%20lug/slides/youkou-lili%2004.html

this dipping lug rig is one that he used, i gather, on the first of these boats that he built for himself. he no longer offers this rig as part of the standard package, but reading between the lines, that was a decision based on market research - nobody wanted to buy it. i got the feeling, from the captions on his website, that this is the rig that he prefers, for its "power" and "efficiency," and probably its beauty. i've read that several times now: "this is a great sail but it is too much work." While that may be a practical sentiment, one with which i would normally agree wholeheartedly, in this case there's a little voice in the back of my head saying, "if that's such a good sail, isn't the extra work worth it?" it's kind of like prefering a car with an automatic transmission because the manual is too much work: why not just get a golf cart then?

i understand what you are saying about the difficulties of making your own sails, especially if you're not going to do alot of them. I certainly don't want to produce some old rag with creases and sags all through it, and i'm not convinced that i'd be capable of better. on the other hand, sailmaking does seem interesting, and i quite like the idea of being self-reliant, and of being able to say to myself that i did everything on that boat. all that to say, i still haven't made up my mind.

p.s. i enjoyed the rant. very sensible.

I use on the Alpha dory are Main and jib- 15+- mph wind speed, main-25+- jib only over that, I have also considered taking the tack of the jib back to the mast for extreme conditions but have not had the need.

that addresses some of my concerns about reefing. i'm not so worried about it when it's just me in the boat, but i really don't want to dump with the kids on board. they'd never go out with me again.

2- She will happily sail at 45 degrees making good speed, pinching above 30-35 the boat slows noticably.

that sounds resonable.

here is a great video of going up wind and moving well

i quite enjoyed those videos. thanks for that. i might even consider doing that myself, if i ever get this thing finished.
[/quote]


There are some great images of these vertices:

great shots.

and let me ask for a clarification on your explanation. is it not just the length of the luff that determines the losses? it seems like the horizontal distance across the foil has something to do with it as well. that is why the glider's wings are slender, no? with a short foil, there is less pressure difference to overcome when the two flows get back together.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yep, that dipping lug is also a pretty nice looking package and there certainly is some kind of magic that attracts some of us to "character rigs". They may not always be the fastest, easiest to use or most efficient, but the very idea of having one scratches some curious itch that we harbor. Some of the Norwegian squaresail powered boats affect me the same way and some day I still hope to try one. When I first moved here, I figured that a town that had yacht and iceboat clubs which were 100 years old would have some really choice traditional boats. No such luck. Traditional here means a Melges 24 that's more than five years old and most of the old iceboats have been updated to the point where the keel timber is about the only part of the boat that didn't come out of a Harken catalog. Being a rather contrary individual, I sometimes get the urge to sail past their race course in something powered by a squaresail.

Keep in mind that in many cases, it doesn't take all that much work or money to build an additional rig for most small-ish boats, especially if you enjoy messing with sail kits and are within reasonable driving distance of a Home Depot. There is often nothing preventing you from eventually adding another, different rig, either for different performance, or just for a fun change of pace on certain days. With these free-standing, or limited-rigging sailplans, a little adjustment to the rig design or mast stepping assembly might be all it takes to allow you to drop in an additional mast and rig with minimal hassle. I don't know squat about big boats, but I really enjoy pushing the boundaries on little ones. It's relatively cheap and it's usually relatively safe (at least if it falls on you, it probably won't hurt much). A seaworthy open hull should make a pretty good platform for experimentation.

[L.W. Baxter]

Geez, I'm tickled to see my boat make it into this thread.

I haven't got anything intelligent to add to the discussion of sails, but here's a better quality copy of that picture. I must have posted a compressed file originally, or your machine compressed it, Todd.

Anyway, this is a Dion Swampscott from The Dory Book, with the sailplan scaled faithfully from Gardner's drawing.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3318/3646371552_809df0ae37_o.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

In my opinion, between the profile of the hull, the shadow lines of the planks and the profile of the rig, that boat is absolutely stunning! The scenery in the background ain't half-bad either if you can pry your eyes off the boat long enough to look at it.

[Peerie Maa]

and let me ask for a clarification on your explanation. is it not just the length of the luff that determines the losses? it seems like the horizontal distance across the foil has something to do with it as well. that is why the glider's wings are slender, no? with a short foil, there is less pressure difference to overcome when the two flows get back together.

No one is interested in what happens behind the foil where the air comes together, as the useful work has already been done. By reducing the "amount" of end, you limit the effects of the air coming together at the ends.
The amount of lift that you get is a function of area. If efficiency were the same then it would be only down to span x chord. The issue of pressure difference is limited by the wings tendency to stall if you try to get more lift that it can develop. All wing designs will try to maximise that pressure difference. It really is down to high aspect ratio for efficiency versus the ability to build a long foil with adequate strength.

[Clinton B Chase]

James, Are you lying head-to-wind with the mizzen sheeted tight, or do you have the helm hard over, please explain. I know how to do both, but have only "heaved to" in a sloop, jib backed, helm hard to lee, lashed down.

Dan's point about the battens flattening the sail are true. In Michael Storer's Goat Island Skiff the battens can come out to help power up the sail. I found in Ran Tan with the high aspect rig, that I could sail a course as high as a sloop. WHen far off the wind however, it was hard to control twist in the sail and I remember one point -- it was with Dan, IIRC -- where the yard was forward of the mast and we started this rolling action...kinds scary.

James, i think a jib can be used in a sail and oar boat just fine. In my Deblois St dory the lug mast can step aft to make room for a jib. The yard can still come down fast and the jib doused in a hurry.

Jon, I would suggest a standing lugsail no boom for your dory if you plan to row a lot and have crew. If singlehanded and sailing more, I would go with a balanced lug or standing lug w/ boom. I think a mizzen would be a natural addition to the dory (using steering lines and yoke) if singlehanding often.
Clint

[TerryLL]

Very interesting discussion gentlemen.
All my experience in dory sailing has been either gaff or sprit, so I am listening attentively to the lug rig comments. I certainly agree with James that an aft sail is a joy when reefing the main. My large dory was a sprit ketch and she would weathervane nicely under a hard-sheeted mizzen with the main down.

[johngsandusky]

Mine too, but she makes sternway pretty quick in the kind of breeze that makes me want to shorten sail.

[Clinton B Chase]

John, that is why I think what James is doing, heaving to, is better because there is less leeway. That is true in a sloop heaved to situation. If the mizzen is sheeted in tight, and the rudder is turned and tiller lashed to windward, wouldn't the boat be hove to? It would make slight headway...doesn't sound right. Where is James?

Terry, I think a ketch is an ideal rig for a dory because of the combination of sail areas that can go up, as Culler called the 'sporting rig' in his dory. I like it in a big dory so the mizzen isn't in the way. I sketched a balance lug with sprit mizzen (ketch) for the Beachcomber that looked pretty darn good.

Clint

[James McMullen]

I am hove-to, with the rudder hard over and the boat docilely sitting more or less at rest.

I think that part of the reason you may have had trouble controlling twist in Ran Tan's sail is because she doesn't actually have a proper boom, just another batten along the foot and two sheets if I remember correctly from the pictures.

You'll spend more time f-ing around just with setting up stays and untangling your jib sheets and leading them where they're supposed to go every time you rig and un-rig than you'll take to hoist every single other part of my lug yawl rig. Seriously, I can go from boat on the trailer to actually sailing away from the dock in less time than it takes just to set up the rig ashore on a boat like a Lido or a Coronado. I think jibs belong on boats large enough to have a foredeck to walk out on to deal with them. In tiny boats, they are neither necessary nor handy, especially single-handed.

Making your mizzen bigger than it absolutely needs to be to perform its steering and balance functions means that you are putting more of your total sail area into a less efficient place that is more in your way. I don't think a ketch or cat-ketch is nearly as optimum for actual performance as a cat-yawl.

Just my two cents.

[jon_m_campbell]

Keep in mind that in many cases, it doesn't take all that much work or money to build an additional rig for most small-ish boats

I've thought about building a second rig. I think it would work well on this boat. Without having drawn it out to check, it seems like the mast for the l-o-m is in about the same place as it would be for a dipper. and that's probably a safer way to go - i could begin with something that i know will work, and then experiment with something new without holding up the sailing.

In my Deblois St dory the lug mast can step aft to make room for a jib. The yard can still come down fast and the jib doused in a hurry.


My large dory was a sprit ketch and she would weathervane nicely under a hard-sheeted mizzen with the main down.

do either of you have pictures of your boats and rigs? i'd love to see them. it would give me a better idea what the possibilities are.


Making your mizzen bigger than it absolutely needs to be to perform its steering and balance functions means that you are putting more of your total sail area into a less efficient place that is more in your way. I don't think a ketch or cat-ketch is nearly as optimum for actual performance as a cat-yawl.


James, chapelle has a chapter on shallops and almost all of them are ketch rigged. these were boats used in the latter half of the 19th century i think. they're in the 18-25' range, most of them double enders: block island cowhorn, ilse of shoals boat, no man's land boat, etc. chapelle says that they all sailed well, though he doesn't generally give more details than that. i gather the sailing performance depended as much on the hull shape as the rig. it seems, as you say, that the aft sail might get choppier wind off the sail in front of it, but a ketch would allow you to carry the sail lower down, which would reduce heeling. part of that perpetual compromise, i guess.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Then we can always ponder the question of what type of mizzen is best for a lug-rigged yawl? I suspect that there is no right answer (or that there are a lot of them). Most of the ketch and yawl sail sets that I've built have a mizzen that is basically a reduced (and often reduced draft) version of the mainsail. Keeping some of the details the same, like panel width and trim-out options, tends to make them look like a proper pair which go together. I have, however, seen a lot of old photos, especially those of old sailing canoes, where the mizzen was a different type of sail from the main. They might have some sort of big balanced lug main and the mizzen might be a small, Bermuda with either a conventional or sprit boom, or even a little lateen. If you sort through the characteristics, sail area placement and rigging details of the various types, the unusual choice sometimes starts to make sense. Sometimes though, it's only one of several possible types that would seem to have worked quite well and I always whish I could have crawled inside the designer's mind to what lead to that particular decision.

[Clinton B Chase]

Jon you hit it on the head there...these boats as you mention and the dory are a perpetual compromise. Ran Tan, Rowan a.k.a. Arctic Tern, are meant more for sailing (yes I know they are S & O boats, but the lines suggest they are more towards the "Sail" end of the continuum). The lines are drawn to support efficiency under sail and that is exactly what a big lug can do...and it'll keep drawing in light airs and will easily reef with the useful mizzen steering the boat and lying hove to. I think in a dory the 'sporting rig' as Culler calls it fits the boat's shape and the intended use of a dory. It would not 'fit' stepped in a boat like Rowan. The trade off for efficiency is safety and flexibility in the rig configuration and for stowage purposes.

James, yes the batten helps a lot but not enough to control twist. It does very well though on all other points. Ben has played a lot with different batten stiffnesses and I think found a good place. In my Dory the lack of boom is not a problem because we'll be keeping the crew busy poling out the foot of the sail. I might make it into a sprit that can lash to the mast. When solo I'll hope to be able to configure the steps/partners to take the rig of a Goat Island Skiff-yawl that I am kitting out.

So, James, how much leeway are you making when hove to like this? The mizzen is sheeted in all the way? And when you say the rudder is hard over, that is to leeward or windward (depending how you look at it I guess). Is the board up or down?

Thanks.

Jon I have a drawing that is being photoshopped and done up real nice...will be posting it on my website very soon and will share. I'll dig out the Beachcomber sketch and scan it.

Clint

[TerryLL]

do either of you have pictures of your boats and rigs? i'd love to see them. it would give me a better idea what the possibilities are.



Here are a few pics of my Cape Ann dory that was rigged as a sprit-ketch. I preferred to sail her with the main in the forward step without the jib. The original lines for this boat showed a single masted sprit rig with jib.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/cape_ann1.jpg?t=1245714623

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/cape_ann3.jpg?t=1245714715

[James McMullen]

Mizzen sheeted in all the way. This is why I added a boomkin to the plans--to make this easy and definite.
Rudder thrown over all the way, one way or the other--whichever seems convenient. Which ever side it is over to, the boat will naturally fall off a bit to the side so that any sternway causes her to point up into the wind again in that rhythmic cycle a hove-to boat will follow.
The board is left up or down, however it was when I decided to heave to, whatever--(which most often means down more or less since you normally only notice that you want less sail area going uphill.) The boat will make more leeway with the board up, but. . . .

The little bit of leeway she makes is not much to deal with since I've got the reef tied in and the sail hoisted back up and drawing in no more than the time it took to type this out. You can ask Yeadon or Garth how fast a reef can be put in or shaken out for a unbiased, outside opinion--but I think that the balance lug is the handiest and quickest to rig, strike or reef small boat sail ever invented. It would be worth it for that part alone, even if it weren't such a good windward performer too--but it is!

[Yeadon]

You can ask Yeadon or Garth how fast a reef can be put in or shaken out for a unbiased, outside opinion--but I think that the balance lug is the handiest and quickest to rig, strike or reef small boat sail ever invented. It would be worth it for that part alone, even if it weren't such a good windward performer too--but it is!

I just stumbled across this thread, and look at that ... there's my name.

I'd say James or Chad (I, Rowboat, also of the lug-yawl fleet) can put in a reef in about two minutes. This is if they are really hustling. Otherwise, I'd say it takes three minutes. They sheet in the mizzen, drop the main's yard, reclip the tack and clew, tie in two or three nettles, then raise the yard. And then they keep sailing.

I'm also looking to add a balance lug yawl rig to my peapod.

[jon_m_campbell]

Terry, That's a pretty boat. I really like that shot from the bow. Strong shear and dry looking decks. You must have been able to handle some rough weather in that. I can see that she's big enough that the mizzen wouldn't get in the way while you're at the helm. What are her dimenions?

And how did the motor well work? Would it have caused problems if you swamped?

[TerryLL]

Terry, That's a pretty boat. I really like that shot from the bow. Strong shear and dry looking decks. You must have been able to handle some rough weather in that. I can see that she's big enough that the mizzen wouldn't get in the way while you're at the helm. What are her dimenions?

And how did the motor well work? Would it have caused problems if you swamped?

The boat is from lines in Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft, 22'9" by 5'5". She was a very good boat in very bad conditions. The outboard well worked fine, though suffered the same complaints of many well designs, gassy and sloshy. The motor was a long shaft and I never had water come over the well top even in the worse conditions.

The fore and aft ends were sealed off with bulkheads, and decked with hatches. The thwarts either end of the CB were boxed and filled with foam blocks. I'm pretty sure if she had been filled with water she would have floated high enough to drain on her own down to the well top, but I never had the pleasure of finding out. I took solid water into her only a time or two and that was in a very nasty rip tide with waves jumping at me from every angle.

[Daniel Noyes]

--- James, what have you noticed about the effect of mast bending (unstayed mast) in putting unwanted draft into your lugsail? I am making stiffer wooden masts to improve on I hope my bendy windsurfer masts (one done, actually), which are bendy enough to watch changes in my standing-lugsail shape (I've seen the ten foot main mast bend 6 inches in the middle in 15-20 mph). Your rig is pretty big -- what is your mast diameter? 3 inches I am guessing?--Wade

great discussion

Wade I noticed this also, the modern standing lug put extreme compressive stresses on the mast between the mast head and the down haul.
When the wind was light the sail was very flat and rigid, like a pice of plywood, when the wind increased the pressure bowed the sail and mast alowing the sail to become fuller and more powerfull... this seems to be the opposite of what would be desired (full shaped sail for light wind and the flat tight sail for heavy wind)

At the Small Reach regatta I noticed the lug sails had multiple 2 and 3 rows of reef points where the L-O-M rigs had one row or none. This could be because the L-O-M tends to flaten as wind speed increases rather than develop a bag and catch more wind. I have also noticed the tendancy to bag in the four cornered sprit rig, in strong wind the snotter line can streach and the sprit bow and alow the sail to bag some.

Terry I was looking at your boat last night in Chapelle, he speaks well of its seaworthyness, apparently a hull along those lines was manufactured by Higgins &Gifford of Gloucester.

While thumbing through Chapelle I was thinking about your ketch and considering the many other historic small open cat ketches Chappelles pages. Which made me ask Where are the Cat Yawls? 122 plans and 350 pages of historic small craft and not a single Lug or Cat Yawl.
What is the history of this rig in small craft in Europe? I realize the north sea fleet used the dipping lug, Zulus and the like, yachts were riged as yawls gaff main and standing lug mizzen. How about small boats? Sailing canoes?, but they seem to have evolved to the batwing main as their ideal. Most of the historic Faerings I have seen photos or drawings of carried a sprit sail...I am not knowledgeable about European Historic small craft and rigs so more info would be great.

Jon I assume you are building to gardners plans for the sailing version with board and rudder? (apparently the original gunning dories were not built to sail and only carried a small L-O-M for off the wind.
If I were you I would build a rig close to what gardner drew, this will provide you with a hull and rig well tuned and cappable of stellar performance as a sail and oar boat...then experiment from there.

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[James McMullen]

I noticed the lug sails had multiple 2 and 3 rows of reef points. . .

I think this is more because the designers of these boats sail in the North Atlantic and are used to going sailing in conditions most of us find horrifying. I generally go home by the time it reaches Force Six, but Iain or Nigel seems to merely find this sort of wind "refreshing". I have had occasion to use my third set of reefs. . . . but mostly I just like having them 'cause it looks totally badass.

[Thorne]

Dan -

If you get a chance check out Leather's SPRITSAILS AND LUGSAILS for some good info on Euro rigs of this sort. Book is expensive ($150+) so try the library first...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=john+leather&field-title=SPRITSAILS+AND+LUGSAILS&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=&url=&field-feature_browse-bin=&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-subject=&field-language=&field-dateop=&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=&sort=relevancerank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=41&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=11

[TerryLL]

Dan,

When I first got into boatbuilding there were no lug-yawl rigs shown for small craft that I recall, or very few. Nothing like the prevalence of the rig seen today. Everything was sprit or gaff, or LOM for most dories. I have to think that the popularity of the Oughtred designs is largely responsible for the interest in the lug-yawl rig in America, and the waning interest in the sprit and gaff rigs.

[James McMullen]

I think you're right, Terry. For example, my own interest in sprit rigs waned remarkably fast once I compared it to an Oughtred Caledonia Yawl I got to try out. Very soon after, I sold my sprit-rigged dory-skiff and started building a Ness Yawl for myself.

[Daniel Noyes]

At the boat shops I was at along the North Shore I only saw sprits, gaffs, dory and sloops. We also have a history of Lateens along the shore here in Mass/Nh.
it was when I began attending boat shows and the Small Reach Regatta that I first saw the yawl and lug type craft in action.
James did you own a Chamberlain designed dory skiff?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[I, Rowboat]

I think this is more because the designers of these boats sail in the North Atlantic and are used to going sailing in conditions most of us find horrifying. I generally go home by the time it reaches Force Six, but Iain or Nigel seems to merely find this sort of wind "refreshing". I have had occasion to use my third set of reefs. . . . but mostly I just like having them 'cause it looks totally badass.

The only time I've had three reefs tucked in on Dragonfly (and sailing in company w/ Rowan), I sure wouldn't have wanted to row through those confused seas. In a lot of wind, I was more comfortable with the sail up; the problem was the steep, short waves. Reefing the main was still pretty easy in that mess. The hard part is reefing the mizzen, which you only sorta' need with two reefs in the main, but definitely with three in.

[James McMullen]

Chaimberlain dory-skiff, straight out of Gardner's Dory Book. It was an early effort and a great learning boat as I made all of the classic beginner's mistakes trying to save pennies on it: fir plywood instead of marine plywood, a leeboard instead of the centerboard cause I thought a CB or DB case sounded harder to make, thole pins instead of oarlocks, wrapped rope around my oars rather than make proper leathers, cheap-o paint and varnish, sprit rig with no boom 'cause it was an extra spar to build. . . . .

I would do virtually every single thing differently now, actually, including not compromising on a knuckle-sided hull shape because of fear of spiling a few extra planks.

[Daniel Noyes]

Chaimberlain dory-skiff, straight out of Gardner's Dory Book. It was an early effort and a great learning boat as I made all of the classic beginner's mistakes trying to save pennies on it: fir plywood instead of marine plywood, a leeboard instead of the centerboard cause I thought a CB or DB case sounded harder to make, thole pins instead of oarlocks, wrapped rope around my oars rather than make proper leathers, cheap-o paint and varnish, sprit rig with no boom 'cause it was an extra spar to build. . . . .

I would do virtually every single thing differently now, actually, including not compromising on a knuckle-sided hull shape because of fear of spiling a few extra planks.

Sounds like fun
I dont think Gardner or Chamberlain would have recomended the leeboard on that hull, or a loose footed sprit, for performance reasons .
I have sailed and rowed the same boat since age 8, It is made of the other stuff (frp) the plug for the mold was built by a 100+ yr old dory co. just starting to experiment with F Glass.
With the rig you describe I'm not surprised you found the Cal Yawl a better performer, especially as it has 1/3 more length.
I would be interested to see how a Chamberlain dory skiff, properly rigged would perform sailing with the Cal Yawl.
I dont think there is any question that the Chamberlain dory skiff built to 19'6" would be a faster boat on and off the wind than the CY.
Along the Merrimack we have a interesting history of dory/ skiffs The Townie is the best known today, still raced at Marblehead.
There is a wonderfull photo in the Lowells boatshop arcives from 1900 +- of big skiffs 20' or so racing, the fleet of 6-8 boats is headed down wind with these huge boomed spritsails and jibs, all kinds of white water behind and 3 men to a boat.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[James McMullen]

Leeboards are very disappointing and I don't care for the performance of an un-boomed spritsail very much, myself, but I have to point out that the rig of the Townie is scarcely "properly rigged" by sail & oar standards as it is by no means easy to set or strike quickly while afloat. Sail & oar boats with pretensions of all-weather capabilities must be able to get the rig up or down easily at will. Racing boats are clearly not the model to follow for a safe, expedition cruising open boat.

[Daniel Noyes]

The only time I've had three reefs tucked in on Dragonfly (and sailing in company w/ Rowan), I sure wouldn't have wanted to row through those confused seas. In a lot of wind, I was more comfortable with the sail up; the problem was the steep, short waves. Reefing the main was still pretty easy in that mess. The hard part is reefing the mizzen, which you only sorta' need with two reefs in the main, but definitely with three in.

Interesting point
John have you considered the possibility of using your rig as a stabalizing force in SF Bay's famous choppy water?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Daniel Noyes]

Leeboards are very disappointing and I don't care for the performance of an un-boomed spritsail very much, myself, but I have to point out that the rig of the Townie is scarcely "properly rigged" by sail & oar standards as it is by no means easy to set or strike quickly while afloat. Sail & oar boats with pretensions of all-weather capabilities must be able to get the rig up or down easily at will. Racing boats are clearly not the model to follow for a safe, expedition cruising open boat.

I know were a little off topic here but...

Townie has been day sailed extensively and camp cruised by summer camp kids and most famously Tom Mcgrath artist and writer who cronicled trips all over including a sail from cape cod to the bay of fundy in a townie.

interesting about the Townie racing vs. cruising-daysailing.
the cruise/day sail boats all have small out boards, it's been the thing to do for yrs, and a townie's wide transom takes one with out too much complaint.
You can spot the racing boats because almost every racing townie also has a set of oar lock sockets in the coaming at the end of the centerboard trunk, NO motor.
These boats have be continuiously raced at Marblehead, Nahant and along the coast and represent a direct lineage back to the days of true Sail and Oar.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[James McMullen]

I love Tom McGrath's Voyages of the Damn Foole (http://www.amazon.com/Voyages-Damn-Foole-Tom-McGrath/dp/0070450897)! Hilarious! Everyone should track it down and read it! The text and the illustrations are equally fantastic.

But after you've read it, go ahead and try to tell me he didn't run into some of his "adventures" because he didn't have a rig that was easy to set or strike while afloat. I'm not saying that Townies aren't good boats. What I am saying is that a rig you can't set or especially strike down in next to no time is sub-optimal for sail & oar cruising--neither as safe, as handy, nor as convenient as it could be. With modern sailcloth and rope, you can have a very powerful and efficient sailplan that doesn't need any stays or shrouds whatsoever on a boat of this size. If you are sailing with crew to help you sort it all out each time, perhaps you can put up with a bit more complication and fussing about with your rig, but if you want to singlehand and be self-contained, self-sufficient and safe, an unstayed rig is where it's at, baby.

[Clinton B Chase]

Finally went sailing in the Compass Project John Dory. It was blowing hard for this sea trial with four in the boat. A couple staff built the 88SF Sprit rig. It is beautiful and they are working on setting it up properly. This was the first time I was able to set out to help them. The first thing we did was change the sheeting angle which they had far too forward on a traveler over the long tiller. The rope traveler gets easily hung up on the tiller, which broke right where it notched over the rudder stock. No big surprise there. When I sat in the way aft against the transom and grabbed the main sheet and pulled back to fix the shape of the sail the boat took off and everyone when "whoaaaa". So, I advised some thumb cleats on the sheer clamp in a few locations between the aftermost frame and transom. The other issue was a big crease down the diagonal of the sail which I think has to do with luff tension or sprit tension. So, we need to play with that. The tiller broke about 15 minutes in; I am advising we switch to line steering with a yoke which is a nice way to steer a dory. We're learning a lot!

Cheers,
CLint

[TerryLL]

Yoke steering on a long narrow boat like the John Dory is the way to go, especially if you're sailing alone. You'll need to move well forward to get the boat to balance properly, well out of reach of the tiller.

We need pics, Mr. Chase.

[Clinton B Chase]

We need pics, Mr. Chase.

I know, I know. I am a terrible photo-documenter.

Cheers

[kenjamin]

Clint,

Since I own plans to the John Dory, I'm very interested in this thread.

Sorry again about all the blood when you were helping me trailer Xena at Mystic. I never imagined those plastic rope guides to be the spear tips they apparently are. One good thing was that the discomfort in my hand helped to keep me awake over the long drive home to Tallahassee.

Of all the rigs Mr. Oughtred has drawn for the John Dory, I think the sprit is the most attractive. It is also available as a stock kit from Sailrite which I like because I just bought one of their machines. Of course my answer to every sail rig need is a birdwing mast but oh, the work involved! In laminated wood, Xena's brute of a mast is too heavy for the John Dory but I would love to build a lighter version which could be much more easily stepped. In carbon fiber, it could be really light and handy with more efficient foil cross sections.

So please, please, please get that wrinkle worked out and get us guys on the sidelines some pictures! If I have to send you a one-use camera, I will!:cool:

[TerryLL]

Kenjamin,
I think the sprit would be a dandy rig for the John dory. I can't recall if Iain drew that rig loose-footed or boomed, but a simple sprit boom would do the trick. No need for stays or shrouds, and the mast and sprits all fit inside the boat. Total rig weighs about half of Xena's mast; you could step it with one hand.

I believe Clinton has forsaken use.

[kenjamin]

Thanks Terry,

The Oughtred sprit rig for John Dory has a horizontal lightweight boom but it is high enough so that no one gets wacked by it accidentally and you won't find yourself having to yell at newbie crew, "Watch out for the ....oops, sorry!"

There's no doubt in my mind that Xena's mast could have been built lighter but in this experiment I couldn't afford for it to fail so it's a little over-built. I recently took the finish down to bare wood for the Mystic show probably removing another couple of extra pounds before refinishing. I see the design reaching full potential when rendered with the aid of computers in carbon fiber. However, as it is now, in laminated wood, it's very strong and durable so I can't complain too much.