Copper Riveting

[kenjio30]

I plan to fasten plank to frame with copper rivets. In the past I have used small copper nails, say, six-penny common nails with flat copper washers (roves) on the inboard side. The manufacturers where I am now (India) supply only roves that are cup-shaped, rather than flat. The roves appear to be deformed into this shape by punching first the outer shape from one direction and then the inside hole from the opposite direction. The established practice here is to set these roves on the nail (rivet) with the cup facing down (against the inboard face of the frame), nip off the nail, then peen same to the rove. The whole process is such that the rove's cupped shape doesn't get any setting-up or peening down force great enough to flatten it out against the frame, and that bothers me.

I've seen pictures of really fancy roves in the US with this cupped shape, and assumed that they were solid rather than hollow, as they are here. What bothers me about the Indian roves is that there remains that gap between the frame and the rove at its center, where the rivet comes through. I "intuit" a much sounder fastening job if the copper rove and peened rivet were brought down firmly against the frame. The rivets I plan to use are much bigger - 1/4"x1/4" square in section - than what I've had experience with; so their roves, if of this cupped style, would really stand off the frame at their high (center) point, and I don't like that.

I'd appreciate any comments you may have on setting up copper rivets. - kenjio30

[floatingkiwi]

Do you have a heavy steel weight bearing onto the nail head when setting the rove from the other side?

[jackster]

kenjio30,
I have the same misgivings as you, it seems the roves are on upside down.
I would (easy for me to say) either,
1- Do what the boss says, assuming I work for someone else.
2- Turn the roves over and install, if that seems appropriate and assuming it is my boat.
3- Order rivets and roves I am familiar with and install them as I normally would, assuming it is my boat or a boat which I am contracted to build/repair and I am responsible for.
floatingkiwi's point about bucking them is a good one, but you knew that.
Just my opinion from a great, great distance. Good luck and let us know what is decided.

[peter radclyffe]

I plan to fasten plank to frame with copper rivets. In the past I have used small copper nails, say, six-penny common nails with flat copper washers (roves) on the inboard side. The manufacturers where I am now (India) supply only roves that are cup-shaped, rather than flat. The roves appear to be deformed into this shape by punching first the outer shape from one direction and then the inside hole from the opposite direction. The established practice here is to set these roves on the nail (rivet) with the cup facing down (against the inboard face of the frame), nip off the nail, then peen same to the rove. The whole process is such that the rove's cupped shape doesn't get any setting-up or peening down force great enough to flatten it out against the frame, and that bothers me.

I've seen pictures of really fancy roves in the US with this cupped shape, and assumed that they were solid rather than hollow, as they are here. What bothers me about the Indian roves is that there remains that gap between the frame and the rove at its center, where the rivet comes through. I "intuit" a much sounder fastening job if the copper rove and peened rivet were brought down firmly against the frame. The rivets I plan to use are much bigger - 1/4"x1/4" square in section - than what I've had experience with; so their roves, if of this cupped style, would really stand off the frame at their high (center) point, and I don't like that.

I'd appreciate any comments you may have on setting up copper rivets. - kenjio30
you dont need any more strength, there like this to make access to the rove easier/away from the frame & it helps to hold the rove in place

[Clencher]

Conical roves such as you describe are more or less standard issue here in the UK. They work very well and there are probably boats over a century old fastened with them

They go hand in hand with square section copper boat nails. Drive the nail through the plank and frame, with a helper holding against the frame on the inside adjacent to where the nail will come through. Now hold against the head of the nail with what I would call a ‘dolly’ – I find a shipwrights maul ideal for this, whilst the helper drives the conical rove over the nail with what I would call a roving iron (rove punch/burr set) until the rim of the rove just bites into the timber. Snip the nail off and peen over in the usual way.
These fastenings are extremely effective.

There is a good description of the process in our host’s book “Planking and Fastening” p. 105.

The photo below shows a boat fastened in this way. Beale Park Show, 2006.


http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL370/9115650/16752884/368555754.jpg

[ARW123]

I agree with Clencher; the roves and nails below haven't been touched for 103 years......

http://www.means2.com/Assets/Corsair/Roves.jpg

So no worries about longevity.

[Peerie Maa]

I believe that you will have to use rooves, rather than flat washers with 1/4 " boat nails, or you will never be able to set the roove tight enough. You could get away with flat washers with 1/4 " round nails from experience.

[boattruck]

'Riveting' subject; The traditional conical roves have worked for a long time, it seems to me that that bit of 'spring' inherent in a well peened rivet and rove is just what a boat wants as it goes through the cycles of the years and use, and there certainly is no arguing with the data we see as we observe boats built with these fastenings, they are far and away the longest lasting fastening of all the options, Best of luck, BT

[Thorne]

The hollow conical roves have worked well for many years, so no worries there. Only downside is that you can't refinish the boat's interior by scraping, as they will pop off if hit with a scraper or sander -- don't ask me how I know this...

http://www.luckhardt.com/bowspritloop7.jpg

[peter radclyffe]

The hollow conical roves have worked well for many years, so no worries there. Only downside is that you can't refinish the boat's interior by scraping, as they will pop off if hit with a scraper or sander -- don't ask me how I know this...

http://www.luckhardt.com/bowspritloop7.jpg
although you can gently use a brass rotary wire brush

[Jay Greer]

American roves are flat washers and English are cupped. American nails are double tapered and English nails are straight shanked. I prefer the English style over the American as the entire hole is then filled with copper and no voids. The The English rove is designed to fit tightly down over the nail and should be driven on with a heavy hollow punch while your monkey backs up the head with a very heavy iron that is ground to a spike that fits the nail heads. There are special hammers for this purpose as well. I belive the ships store at the Wooden Boat Foundation has them.
Jay

[ishmael]

It's not terribly difficult. A backing iron, with a head that really fits the rivet head, is probably the hardest thing to round up. I think my last one was a piece of train track, ground down on the end. It is important to concentrate the weight and put it right on the head.

Other than that, tap lightly. A common mistake in this work is hitting the rivet too hard, which will bend the shaft. Tap, tap, tap, a light ball peen hammer.

You'll get the feel for it.

P.S. It can be awkward if you are working alone. I've seen jigemup harnesses, made up by people working alone, which hold the backing iron without much fuss. Necessity as the mother of invention and all that.

Best of luck

[lagspiller]

A conical rove puts tension on the joint by stretching the metal, keeping it tight. Much the same as torqing a bolt to the right spec. Stays tighter than one that is hammered flat.

[RFNK]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I think the original question has been answered? The Twister I'm restoring (well. still demolishing) has planks riveted to frames. the frames are unglued doubles, so they're about 11/2" thick. I'll be replacing some planks and frames. the new frames will be about the same thickness but solidly laminated. I'm considering whether to dispense with the copper rivets because it's such a hassle to get someone to help! This leaves the alternative of using silicon bronze screws instead. I'd be interested in any comment about that. Rick

[floatingkiwi]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I think the original question has been answered? The Twister I'm restoring (well. still demolishing) has planks riveted to frames. the frames are unglued doubles, so they're about 11/2" thick. I'll be replacing some planks and frames. the new frames will be about the same thickness but solidly laminated. I'm considering whether to dispense with the copper rivets because it's such a hassle to get someone to help! This leaves the alternative of using silicon bronze screws instead. I'd be interested in any comment about that. Rick
Buck the Chuck.

[RFNK]

I think Buck the Chuck is ingenious (actually, I think a whole lot of your solutions are ingenious Kerry, BTW) but I'll be doing a lot of fastening. I estimate that I'll be replacing about 20 frames - could be a few more, and there are about 20 or so fasteners per frame. I'll probably replace around 100 more fasteners here and there around the boat. So, I think, unless Buck can be a bit more independently mobile, this might be a bit too much to expect of the Buck and Rick team. Rick

[peter radclyffe]

Buck the Chuck.
he's da man

[kenjio30]

Many thanks to all of you for your input to my enquiry on riveting. India having had lots of exposure to things English, I guess their hollow cupped roves are also of that origin. So you've given me some valuable instruction, and have set my mind at ease over these little bits of copper... Thanks!

- kenjioi30