Burocracy problems in European countrys?

[aldebaran]

A boring subject, I know, but I would very much like to know what kind of problems you might encounter when building your own boat in different European countrys. Do you have to pay license, do you have to register your boat. Whatever.

The reason is that I´ve just been knocked down by Spanish burocracy (yes they are famous, but this one is bad)
Here all boats with a length longer than 2,5m (8,2') has to be registered and carry its license number on the hull. BUT, the worst thing is that in order to register an amateur build boat, you have to make a project including a naval engineer. This project has to be aproven by some kind of group (colegio de ingenieros navales)
In total, a lot of money.........

It may seem absurd, but a small 10' row boat has to go through all this. And the most absurd is that you are not allowed to sell the boat untill after many years....

I´m in a bad humour today.:(
Anders

[andrewe]

Hi, the basics are similar in EU countries, except the UK. Though the Spanish do sound a bit tough. You are not allowed to sell an amateur boat in any EU country until 5 yrs after first use. UK does not have compulsory registration and I notice sellers are ignoring the rule.
If you wish to sell under 5yrs, then you need to get a Recreational Craft Directive certificate for it. This catagorises it for use in sea hights and wind force, from A for Ocean, to D for rivers and lakes. But this can be expensive, for a one off.
Certain boats built to old designs in original materials are considered proven, so get off. Boats purely for racing as well.
Here in France, you can build anything up to 80ft for non commercial use and the registration is free and rapid (20mins in my case) There are limitations on how far from a safe haven you can go. Yet to hear of anybody getting into trouble.
I knew someone in Portugal who built a couple of boats, they seemed less interested if he kept them under 6 mtr. But they must be registered. It is apparently OK to register in another country even if you don't live there. Several guys I know reg. in UK as there are no restrictions on how you use it, or the amount of safety kit you must carry.
I am also reading of owners who move to Spain and get charged hefty taxes to register their boats. But this is talking about production craft. I assume it would apply to home-builts too, just more difficult to asses. They also insist if you spend more than 180 days a year there, as you become resident for tax. I expect you know about all this:o.
Greece seems a bit easier, but I don't know the details. I am building a boat which is popular there and nobody mentions problems on the site. Another builder is in Italy and he didn't comment either.
Andrew
Just noticed your interest in Iain O's boats. My current boat is a Whilly Tern.

[aldebaran]

Hi Andrew

Thanks for your reply. Lots of good info. I´m from Denmark but live in Spain for 8 years now. In Denmark boats are not registered and you can build whatever you like.
Spain is turning into be one of the squarest countrys in the world. They always make everything the strictest as possible. Very annoying. They like homologation numbers a lot. (they talk about CE and ISO when I talk about traditional handmade)
I´m waiting for an answer from a naval engineer, but if to much trouble, I might just build and look out for some other solution, Maybe registering in France or Portugal.

Any pictures of your Whilly Tern? Its high on my building list.

[jonboy]

In Portugal all boats but the smallest (less than 3mt) have to be registered and that involves a once every five years inspection of condition and equipment, and the severity of the inspection and level of equipent depends on many variables... commercial or pleasure, sheltered waters or sea use etc. The last time I checked, home build plans have to be approved before you start by an official, and if they have been drawn up by a recognised naval architect or is obviously a professional design it makes every thing smoother...no sketches on backs of envelopes..But I do know of someone who drew his own design and presented it with all the necessary paperwork and was approved...
The boat will be registered, you may have to pay a fee, you will pay a yearly tax depending on HP (about 65€ on my 40hp outboard -driven runabout) and a buoys and lighthouse tax. Insurance is obligatory as is a 'driving licence' for the owner, again categorised according to use and boat size..Don't think there's a sale restriction though...
No two strokes, toilets or cabins on most inland waterways.
And with many things here, all the regs are in place but I have never been asked to present anything and loads of people just go ahead anyway, on the 'if I get caught I'll pay the fine' principle.
The other thing that works well is the humble and polite approach, and the lets go down the cafe and talk about this over a beer.. Get stroppy with anyone behind a desk here and all your papers get lost, or put to the bottom of the pile, and a token of appreciation strictly when everything's done might help the next time, but bribes up front are not the Portuguese way. Like tipping more than a couple of percent in restaurants, they will just think you are stupid foreigner with too much money...
They don't seem too bothered about foreign registration of boats and cars but everything must be in order for where the boat is registered..
Rules and regulations change all the time, like the almost overnight decree against two-stokes, and with home-builds, which usually take ages (!) don't assume what you were required to do when you started still applies a couple of years later... keep checking... good luck!

[aldebaran]

Jonboy, Thanks a lot for your reply. Its highly appreciated.

It sound like its exactly the same as here in Spain. Rules and how they are being used. Also the thing with how to behave. The same.
I´m just the type of guy who likes to have his papers in order. This way I relax.
From what I read, the best will be to use and present a pro plan and build exactly after this plan.
I will see what happens.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

It's a funny thing....generally we Northern Europeans think that we obey the rules and regulations to the letter, this being usually put down to our Protestant heritage, whilst we think that the Southern Europeans just blithely ignore the lot and do as they please!

(the dividing line between North and South runs through Belgium, for these purposes..;))

When we come to messing about in boats, though, just the reverse applies - we Danes, Swedes and Brits take a very "relaxed" approach to the EU Directives and the French, Spanish, Portuguese Italians and Greeks take the whole thing very seriously!

Maybe not so surprising - who won at Trafalgar, after all! :D

[Tom Robb]

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...."
Happy 4 July 1776 everybody!
Who'd have thunk the Spanish would be so strict? At least they don't use the rack any more;)

[andrewe]

Jonboy, with respect, I lived in Portugal for a number of years and had frequent experience of up front bribes having to be paid before anything happened. I never objected to saying 'thankyou' for a smooth passage of paperwork, but really objected to blatant extortion. Before I left, it was getting better, because of a new anti-corruption drive. So perhaps I am a little out of date. You may be aware of the number of GNR police in Albufeira who ended up in court for running an extortion scheme on the local trucking companies, nearly half the force.

Back to boats, I just checked, and the guy who built the two boats registered them in UK under the SSR scheme. You are supposed to be resident there, but nobody asks. As a Spanish resident, you (aldebaran) would need to eventually register the boat in Spain, and presumably supply all the stuff that they now require. Sounds tricky. From what I have heard they will not allow foreign registration (even if the EU allows it) Quite a few French nationals reg. their boats in Belgium, legaly, for a one time fee (approx. €350) that makes life easier, and cheaper.
A

By the way, the injustices currently being meted out to many over property purchases bring shame on the entire Spanish nation. (sorry-bilge type rant)

[peter radclyffe]

A boring subject, I know, but I would very much like to know what kind of problems you might encounter when building your own boat in different European countrys. Do you have to pay license, do you have to register your boat. Whatever.

The reason is that I´ve just been knocked down by Spanish burocracy (yes they are famous, but this one is bad)
Here all boats with a length longer than 2,5m (8,2') has to be registered and carry its license number on the hull. BUT, the worst thing is that in order to register an amateur build boat, you have to make a project including a naval engineer. This project has to be aproven by some kind of group (colegio de ingenieros navales)
In total, a lot of money.........

It may seem absurd, but a small 10' row boat has to go through all this. And the most absurd is that you are not allowed to sell the boat untill after many years....

I´m in a bad humour today.:(
Anders
please do contact a most helpful n/a, guillermo gefaell http.gestenaval.com

[donald branscom]

Actually the rule in Spain about not selling the boat for 5 years is very smart.

It prevents someone from going into business making and selling boats without making a lot of other rules. Otherwise someone could make and sell boats without having a track record.
Also after 5 years the boat that is built will have been tested and proven.

[andrewe]

Donald, so I make one a year and store them in the barn, then start selling them as soon as the 5 yrs is up. Proves anything?
Would make more money if unused and shiney.

A friend built a boat 6/7 yrs ago, had to go through all sorts of stabilety tests and bouancy trials. Not expensive, but lengthy ( 8 mths) They realised about two yrs ago that it wasn't worth the hassle and one signs a paper taking responsability for the design. The guy said " It's your neck if it sinks" And I am happy with that.

Every homebuilder I spoke to in Portugal (2) said it wasn't easy.
Comes of a bureaucratic mindset in the marine administration. With possible influence from the Naval Arquitects union.
A

[jonboy]

Andrewe, I didn't want to suggest it never happens but I am guessing you were , correct me if I am wrong, in the Algarve, which has about as much to do with Portugal as Iceland... I have been here twenty years, imported cars, built boats, bought boats, customised motorcycles, built a house , converted a barn, started businesses, stopped businesses, had run-ins with the GNR and with the local bogies, with the local councils, with the Finances, and stand by what I say above...It's not the norm...
I once tried to buy a house in the Dolomites, I once tried to import a 4x4 from UAE to France, , I fell off a bike and broke my leg in Austria, I couldn't wipe my bum without a certificate ... believe me Portugal is a cakewalk compared to some places...It's not so Latino, more anglocelticsaxongalician and as I tried to suggest, the laws are there for sure, we're a reasonably enthusiastic member of EU, just they don't seem to pay a whole lot of attention to them, ...A nice blend of what I used to like about pre MT Britain may she rot from the ground up, and current more liberal EU... it's why I'm still here I suppose.......

[andrewe]

Jonboy, yes, you are correct. The Algarve IS different to the rest of Portugal. But I have a lot of friends in other parts who can tell similar stories. Just the money slushing around in the south made people worse. And the bigger the project the more hands there were. It is still difficult to import a car and the taxes charged are in breach of EU regs. They are fined, just don't pay.
This is a bit off the thread, so if you want to continue, best PM.
Andrew

The general attitude is/was yachting is for rich guys, not the general public. I had a chat with the owner of Nicorette and he was involved with making dinghy sailing more accessable to kids and was pleased that the 470 champ was from a 'normal' family.
I lived there for 30 yrs, lovely people, great country. But it took some getting over the Salazar era. A TV poll, 10 yrs after the '74 revolution, got more people saying they were better off before. But they were ignoring what the rest of europe and the world were experiencing. Still had the isolated mindset.
A

[donald branscom]

Donald, so I make one a year and store them in the barn, then start selling them as soon as the 5 yrs is up. Proves anything?
Would make more money if unused and shiney.

A friend built a boat 6/7 yrs ago, had to go through all sorts of stabilety tests and bouancy trials. Not expensive, but lengthy ( 8 mths) They realised about two yrs ago that it wasn't worth the hassle and one signs a paper taking responsability for the design. The guy said " It's your neck if it sinks" And I am happy with that.

Every homebuilder I spoke to in Portugal (2) said it wasn't easy.
Comes of a bureaucratic mindset in the marine administration. With possible influence from the Naval Arquitects union.
A

I do not like rules that make no sense either.
I am thinking WHY would the make a rule you cannot sell a boat for 5 years.
FIRST I do not know if that is really true.
IF it is true, what WOULD be the reason?
I do not know.

[andrewe]

Donald,
It is certainley true. As for being in competition with pros, if I started registering several boats a year, the tax lot would quickly be on my doorstep. Same with the 'brocantes' or boot fairs. you have to register and pay a small fee. Do more than a few a year and you are considered proffesional and pay tax on earnings.
In theory, after 5 years the boat is proved safe. See my post above, and the exceptions for traditional designs. But here you still can't sell ANY amateur build, trad or not, under 5 yrs unless CE approved. ( Perhaps you can with a trad build elswhere, but not in France)
A

Are we to be treated to pics of your 19ft in the water soon?

[JC 72]

Happy 4 of July Don. Glad we live in the states on the left coast. Think I'll build a cardboard canoe and sell it tomorrow on flea-bay...

[aldebaran]

Well, time to look things over.
The whole thing is not very good looking. Here in Europe, we are creating a control system which in the end will kill personal iniciative. All these rules will stop people making things like boats. Something which has been our culture for thousands of years. Build and sail. This way we have created what we used to have, a cultural heritage. Bye bye cultural heritage. In Spain this cultural Heritage has almost dissappeared. You only see a lot of ugly plastic boats everywhere. In Portugal, fortunately, they are preserving what they have a lot more and you see a lot of strongly build wooden boats capable to deal with Atlantic sea between rocks and tide.

What we´ll have in the future is a lot of factory produced plastic crap with CE and ISO numbers.

There´s a clear difference between North and south Europe. The same laws apply for all countrys, but the way they are being used are still very different. In Scandinavia they are not in use yet, In Denmark you dont even need a "drivers license" in order to be allowed to sail. BUT one Day Scandinavia and England will most probably be forced to follow these rules and when you start using rules in the north, everyone has to follow them.
In the south of Europe, the rules are much more strict. Typically latin, They are very square when it comes to laws and police., but the control might be very loose. But this will most probably change very soon.
So soon, we´ll have the famous Orwell 1984 police state.

I´m sure that you can still build and use a boat here in South Europe without registering it. Ben´s boat (http://theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com) is not registered. It doesnt have the quite big numbers painted on the front part of the hull. Yet, he has used it intensively during almost 3 years.
BUT I dont think its a good idea to do so in the south of Spain and I wouldnt like to be the only one around here without numbers on the hull. We are very close to Africa and illegal inmigrant use boat to go to Spain, so we have police everywhere controling the coast. Besides, a lot drugs are entering Europe this way to.

One last thing and just to show how "wonderfull" a world be are creating: Here in Spain you are not free to choose the name of your boat. You have to give 3 names when registering and if there´s already boats with these names they cannot be accepted. And you have to use the Spanish alfabeth (Oh what a wonderfull world)
Also, you are only allowed to sell your boat if it is registered and you have obtained a CE number (Lots of burocracy) We dont even have the 5 years rule, (where you can sell after 5 years) (Oh what a wonderfull world)

I dont know, I will se how much it´ll cost to make a project. If to expensive..... No building.

[cookie]

It is somewhat different in The Netherlands, as we don't need registration or anything on a boat for now. Unless it is a speedboat or a REALLY large boat.

[aldebaran]

"please do contact a most helpful n/a, guillermo gefaell http.gestenaval.com"

Peter. Thanks for the link. I will do so after the weekend.
(It is www.gestenaval.com (http://www.gestenaval.com))

[peter radclyffe]

"please do contact a most helpful n/a, guillermo gefaell http.gestenaval.com"

Peter. Thanks for the link. I will do so after the weekend.
(It is www.gestenaval.com) (http://www.gestenaval.com))g.gefaell@mundo-r.com

[peter radclyffe]

"please do contact a most helpful n/a, guillermo gefaell http.gestenaval.com"

Peter. Thanks for the link. I will do so after the weekend.
(It is www.gestenaval.com) (http://www.gestenaval.com))
http://www.gestenaval.com

[aldebaran]

It is somewhat different in The Netherlands, as we don't need registration or anything on a boat for now. Unless it is a speedboat or a REALLY large boat.

Thanks for your answer Cookie, I miss northern Europe these days.

Peter, thanks for the mail adress. I will contact Guillermo.

[floatingkiwi]

Mate, go to New Zealand and build a boat any where you want,( within reason), and sail it back.

[jonboy]

One last thing and just to show how "wonderfull" a world be are creating: Here in Spain you are not free to choose the name of your boat. You have to give 3 names when registering and if there´s already boats with these names they cannot be accepted. And you have to use the Spanish alfabeth (Oh what a wonderfull world).


You think that's bad ... here your child has to have an approved name...! no naming it after the Liverpool squad or Prince Paris Michael or some such ... or Chelsea or Brooklyn or unconventionally spelt Cathy Katy Kathy Katie.....walk into a bar and shout Maria or José or João and every second person looks round....but then if you allow Brooklyn you could end up with Pratt's Bottom (it exists S. of London) or Spitalfields, or Hangar Lane Gyratory.....

[aldebaran]

Same here in Spain. I think that Europe is getting bad.

I could build in NZ and sail her here, but I would still have to register her, get a CE number, pay a ton of taxes, fill out a ton of papers. etc;)

[jonboy]

Absolutely do not do this. What awful types could even consider this beats me..... Build her, giving her a bogus 'flag of convenience', from anywhere you choose, put a number on the hull, photoshop/Works up some authentic looking documents.... take all that somewhere to get an insurance,. use a cyrillic typeface and claim the boat is from somewhereistan... they will be more interested in taking your premium than asking questions. Have your personal ID and boat qualifications in order, and go sailing... I have heard the criminals who do this sort of thing find the GNR/Maritime police are happy to see the insurance documents and sailor's pedigree, and after all how many people on the helm actually own the boat they are sailing in...Isn't it terrible what some people get up to...?
Probably not a good idea to go to and fro Marroco though.
Totally not recommended, perhaps.

[andrewe]

Here is another thing you shouldn't do. We 'thought' about building a sports car. The regs in Portugal are a nightmare, virtually impossible. But, we thought, if you found a rare car, like the crashed Lotus we heard about, and 'rebuilt' it, what it looked like afterwoulds might not concern the authorities. One might use a few of the suspension parts and fabricate a new frame, mould a new body and end up with a Porche 917 look-a-like. All road legal as we had the papers with the chassis numbers etc,. In fact we thought it was such a good idea that we might have done it twice......:D
A
Of course, we had much better things to do

[MarkH]

but on the bright side, we can now buy/sell wonky shaped vegetables, eggs that aren't between 53 and 56mm in diameter and bananas that are either too straight or to bendy

and then raise a glass to the fact its only taken countless billions of our tax euros/pounds/francs or whatever for the eurocrats to reach this monumentous decision

The EU mostly sucks IMHO

[andrewe]

Quite Mark, but it only sucks if you don't work in Brussels, so who are we to complain.
I hope the Irish say NO, but it sounds like they have been well bribed.
A

[peter radclyffe]

Absolutely do not do this. What awful types could even consider this beats me..... Build her, giving her a bogus 'flag of convenience', from anywhere you choose, put a number on the hull, photoshop/Works up some authentic looking documents.... take all that somewhere to get an insurance,. use a cyrillic typeface and claim the boat is from somewhereistan... they will be more interested in taking your premium than asking questions. Have your personal ID and boat qualifications in order, and go sailing... I have heard the criminals who do this sort of thing find the GNR/Maritime police are happy to see the insurance documents and sailor's pedigree, and after all how many people on the helm actually own the boat they are sailing in...Isn't it terrible what some people get up to...?
Probably not a good idea to go to and fro Marroco though.
Totally not recommended, perhaps.
i heard of 2 mechanics who after 6 months on classic boats, got 200 ton r y a skippers tickets, then i started thinking, follow the dirty money, to know how they did that, there still skippers on the med yacht circuit, the coke dazur

[aldebaran]

What makes me sick is that where I live (Andalucía, south Spain) there are hundreds of thousands of illegal houses, build where its not allowed to build, build without architects, without paying tax etc. These houses are being sold in the 100.000€ - 400.000€ range with bank loans etc.
At the same time a guy wanting to build a small boat in a traditional manner has to pass all these horrible beaucratic things and if he does so, he´s not even allowed to sell the boat. This is what we call progress and democracy:eek:

[MarkH]

Quite Mark, but it only sucks if you don't work in Brussels, so who are we to complain.
I hope the Irish say NO, but it sounds like they have been well bribed.
A

if they say no (again!) and I really hope they do, chances are, the goal posts will move, a few more bribes and they'll get asked again

if they say yes, president in waiting mandelson will have us sold up the river ASAP without giving us the chance to say no if he had his way

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I have been told, on very good authority, that the EU Recreational Craft Directive, which amongst many other things requires that an amateur built boat be not sold for five years unless she complies with the RCD, was the brainchild of the British boatbulding industry!

[andrewe]

Andrew, I also understood that. "Be careful what you sow...." I think they where looking for a set of EU standards to compete on a level field with the French and Germans. Us amateurs are just collateral damage. IIRR, the 5 yr rule was a French idea, but I might be wrong. Has been known:rolleyes:

Mark,
Lord Mandy came back to take over from G Brown when he ran up against a French commissioner who was more powerful. I think it is T. Blair who is waiting to be EU pres. But yes, Mandy is EU through and through, no election in UK till Lisbon is ratified. I really hope the Irish see fit to bin it.
Andrew

[aldebaran]

So, if there´s a 5 years rule, meaning you cant sell the first 5 years. How come that its non existant in Spain, where you can only sell a boat, never mind its age, if it has a CE number. And the fuzz you have to go through to get a CE number means that you´ll never sell a small open boat around 4 - 5 metes long.

I could live with a 5 years rule, but what we have is far out.

[andrewe]

If you cannot sell a boat that is not CE catagorized, then the 5 yr. rule is irrelevent. My boat is just over 2 yrs old, if I care to go through the CE process, then I can sell it. Basicly the process you were originally complaining about in Spain IS the CE catagorizing. Anybody who wants to sell a few hundred 4-5mt. X type boats will absorbe the cost over the run. Just for one boat is expensive & long. Spain appears to not allow for private one offs.
The irony is that the UK initiated the whole idea and it is the place were you can sell boats because you are not obliged to register and therefore one can not tell the age of one. So a nod and a wink between the buyer and seller seals the deal. Then go and register on-line in the SSR. No checks made there even if was previously registered.
A

[aldebaran]

"Basicly the process you were originally complaining about in Spain IS the CE catagorizing. Anybody who wants to sell a few hundred 4-5mt. X type boats will absorbe the cost over the run. Just for one boat is expensive & long. Spain appears to not allow for private one offs."

No, its worse. First you have to make a project with a Naval architect or engineer. and it has to be approved by some kind of group of naval architects/ingeneers.
LATER if you want to sell, you´ll have to go through the whole CE number process.
At this moment, I´m awaiting costs for the project, but I think the fact that you cant sell the boat later is a very negative thing.
I´m also considering doing other things. I´m Danish and the boat market is completely free in Denmark, so maybe I can fing some kind of solution. Basically, what I want to do is to build and to sail. Both things. And what I dont want is to do paperworks and pay for idiots work.

[andrewe]

Aldebaran, sorry, I assumed the processes were connected. Would it be possible to build it, register it in another country and then 'import' it? I assume you would run up against the CE bit, but just a thought. Tell them it is an old boat, pre. EU and not interesting (i.e. of low value).
A
I would be quite happy to provide a resident address.

[aldebaran]

Andrew, thanks for the kind offer. Lets see what happens.

If you import a boat without a CE number, you´ll have to go through the process of getting a number.
They have their things pretty well covered up.
The whole story has a bad smell of a mafia made of producers of boats, naval architects, some burocrats and whatever makes their money in this show.

[cookie]

While it might not be all perfect in Spain, I do have some good experiences with the Spanish as well. Sorry for going OT a bit..
When I cracked a rib (my own stupid fault for taking too much risk when windsurfing) I asked the police where the nearest hospital was. As I barely speak a word of Spanish, and did not have a clue what they were talking about, they gestured me to sit in the car and drove me to the hospital. In the hospital I was examined by a very friendly female doctor. Had x-rays taken and when I was about to leave with a bag full of pain killers, the nurse asked me where I was staying. This resulted in a somewhat confusing conversation and I managed to explain that I did not have any proof of insurance, did not know the address of the place where I was staying and that I was brought by the police. So, she calls the police. I thought it was in order to get some proof of identification or insurance, but no…. They brought me back to the beach, where my buddies were waiting and wished me a happy day. The hospital examination was totally free of charge and the “taxi” service too.

As for your boat, can you go via a Northern-Europe route. After all the Eu is supposed to be a zone for free trade of goods and services.

[62816inBerlin]

GERMANY ... from experience and hearsay (no extensive research).
Up to now, you have to register your boat in Germany if it's motor-powered and you normally need a licence (SportBootFührerschein) for inshore and/or coastal waters if you skipper anything with more than 5 (German) HP = 3.68 kW. The length limit is 15 m. The tests (theory / practical) are fairly extensive.
They are discussing doing away with the registration obligation.
I suppose the local law has been adapted to implement the EU recreational vessel directives etc. but I've never heard about limitations on building small craft for your own use. There are youth-group projects that involve building Bolger-style designs etc. and they seem to have no problems.
Sailing is regulated differently in the individual federal states. Here in Berlin you used to have to have the local sailing licence even if you raised a beach towel on your rubber matress! Now the limit is 3 m² in Berlin, on Lake Constance it's 12 m², in Saxony it's 6 m² and so on....
On the practical side: I've never been asked for any of my papers when out on the lakes in the past 27 years. Just to avoid tangling with the authorities, I got my licence to sail/motor about 27 years ago, after buying my Mirror in England and bringing it to Berlin on the car roof-rack. When I re-registered our day-sailer (which has an engine (although < 3,68 kW) some years ago, the guys at the waterways police didn't even bother to come out and look at the boat when I went to fetch the certificate (it was drizzling and cold and I guess no-one wanted to get wet).
There are police boats "in uniform" and a "plain-clothes" police boat (little plain-looking cabin cruiser) around and they do pick up people for speeding / skippering under the influence of #hicks ### etc. but as long as you behave fairly rationally they leave you in peace.

After reading the PDR pages and reports on the Texas200 etc. I get the impression that the bureaucracy in Germany is no worse than in most US States!

Gernot H.

PS:
Rules and regulations for recreational traffic (unfortunately only in German): http://www.elwis.de/Freizeitschifffahrt/ and http://www.bmvbs.de/Verkehr-,1405.1624/Wassersport.htm

[peter radclyffe]

if your driving a boat in holland & your not stoned, you get a fine

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

It was of course the German (R. Elbe, IIRC) water police who distinguished themselves by arresting Angus Primrose for being in command of a yacht without a licence - the fact that he had sailed all his life did not impress them, nor did the fact that he was the designer of the 40ft boat that he was sailing... ;)