Brightwork - to oil or not to oil?

[gimmellsmom]

Let me preface by saying NO, I don't know how to use the camera properly on my new iphone...
I've started on the brightwork, this was my summer project. I've done my first piece (hatch cover) which turned out to be a very nice Brazilian mahogany (or so say the owners at my local wood specialty store).
I'm making my game plan for doing the fixed pieces - see photos.
We're not staining the wood (I lost that argument ) but I'm debating oiling (per Rebecca Wittman's books). But it does seem like a lot of work - is it worth it?
I have some bleaching to do I suspect, but will know for sure once the cetol is off. I've got two big jugs of Citri-Strip (which I love using) at the ready - but not sure if the oiling is a step I would get any value out of.
Anyone done it, suggestions or thoughts before I jump in with both rubber gloves...?
Michelle

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3684782384_571c3ce304.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3583/3684782446_b81fb56ac6.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2619/3683969619_d520292552.jpg?v=0http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2422/3683969575_9c5d8b442b.jpg?v=0

[Jay Greer]

First, I would like to mention that it is a mistake not to use an oil based filler stain prior to applying varnish on mahogony as well as other woods. The reason being that while the wood will have an attractive color in the beginning, it will eventually bleach out to a rather non distinctive shade of amber or straw. Using a pigment based filler stain will obviate the problem from happening. I use a single thin coat of clear acrylic lacquer over the open grain of the wood in order to allow the stain to take on uniform penetration without muddying the grain. Once the stain phase is complete, the application of varnish can begin.
My own prefferance is varnish in liu of oil. In my own humble opinion, varnish gives better protection and appearance than does oil when dealing with large surfaces.
Jay

[David G]

g'mom,

Perhaps I've misinterpreted, but when you say oiling per Rebecca Wittman, I'm guessing you mean to sand with oil to create a slurry as a means of filling the pores - as Mr. Smalser likes to do. Then varnishing. Is that your plan?

And did you say that the finish you're stripping off is Sikkens Cetol Marine? How come?

It'd be easier to answer your question if we knew what your intent is for this boat, as well as your overall game plan (or proposed/tentative game plan). The sanding slurry as filler is certainly a bit of extra work. Done correctly, though, it can serve as the substrate for a gorgeous varnish job. I tend to shy away from it - because of the extra work, but possibly also because I haven't done enough of it to get good/fast (as you haven't, I imagine). But mahogany does have open pores, and for the best finish, you'll want to fill them. Jay's staining schedule would help with that. But, if you've read Wittman, you know all the options.

So... are you aiming for a Workboat Finish? Awards for best brightwork at Mystic and Victoria? Something in between?

Oh, and as loathe as I am to disagree with someone of Jay's experience - I don't like pigment stains on mahogany. I prefer a clear or tinted paste filler. But we're into the realm of aesthetics here. I'm a wood junkie, and prefer to see the character of the wood show through, and develop its own character as it ages. If it bleaches out, so be it. If it darkens, ce la vie. Most folks, however, would agree with Jay... darken it up, and even it out.

Prosit,
David G
http://www.harborwoodworking.com/index.html


"The workboat finish is a case of mind over matter: if you don't mind, it don't matter"

[gimmellsmom]

Well best in show would be nice, but my sights are on a nice looking boat that doesn't look like it has a bottle of self tanner smeared on! :)
she's a sound boat so it's estetics and since were the only woodie in the club (whole harbour I believe) we have to represent.

By oiling I do mean the slurry to fill the pores followed by varnish. The pictures speak to why I'm getting rid of cetol, I know some swear by it but I'm not sold. We've been using epifones with great success and I've seen fine examples of it on other boats. Our girl has had too much piecemeal work and we are tryin to do it right the first time.

[David G]

g'mom,

From the fotos, I can't see any reason to get rid of the Cetol. But maybe it doesn't show up. Is it the original flavor that looks kinda fluorescent orange and muddy? If so, I can see why you'd want to get rid of it. For those who don't know, the two newer flavors are much more attractive. I find the Natural Teak quite pleasant.

I've never done exactly this - remove Cetol and apply varnish - but I was looking at a project a while back where that's what the owner wanted done. In checking with the Interlux tech folks, they said one thing that stuck with me. Apparently, the Cetol Marine and standard (tung oil, phenolic resin) spar varnishes (Epiphanes, Interlux #96, etc.) don't really like each other much. They said, in NO case should I just scuff the Cetol and apply varnish. It might work, but was more likely not to. They said if I stripped the Cetol, to make double-darned-sure that I got it all.

You might want to double-check my impression with them to see if that's what they're still saying, or if maybe I'm remembering it more harshly than they told it.

Prosit,
David G
http://www.harborwoodworking.com/index.html


"One doesn't have a sense of humor. It has you" -- Larry Gelbart

[Todd D]

You definitely need to remove the finish on that wood so that you can sand it out properly. The multi-directional coarse sanding marks on that wood look terrible. So take the finish off, sand the wood out properly and then you come to the stain/don't stin decision. Mahogany without stain gradually bleaches, even through varnish, to a rather ugly (to my eyes) yellow. To prevent that you can use a red mahogany stain followed by 8-10 coats of good varnish. The alternative is to periodically strip the varnish, sand the bleaned mahogany back to red and revarnish. A stained surface will retain the color you want much longer.

[Charles Burgess]

There is more to this issue than appearances.

Oil is vital to preserving the wood, as it helps keep the fibers strong and keep water out. Thus no matter what kind of varnish finishes off, you must periodically give the wood some oil. Which kind of oil is the real question. If you don't feed the wood some oil, the wood fibers will deteriorate faster. Just like Oil of Olay gives the ladies a younger look and healthier skin texture, a little BLO or Tung Oil will do likewise for our boats, whom we continue to lovingly refer to as "her" and "she".

Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) is the old standby and gives the well worn look of a work boat, because it oxidizes and turns a dark burnt umber in color over time. Tung Oil doesn't turn dark like BLO and is preferred for yacht work.

After you'd fed the wood with oil, then you can used your favorite varnish that includes some sunblock to preserve the color of the wood.

Oil = part of the TLC that all ladies of the sea desire.

[jonboy]

No problems putting varnish over previously oiled wood ???? or am I thinking problems with still -oily wood versus -old-oiled wood ...just asking..

[Jay Greer]

With all due respect, I must say that you guys are making more work out of this project than is needed. While many of you are advocating oil or other weird forms of under coat, it really isn't needed. In fact the only thing it does is to take up more valuable time for the worker as well as create later extra labor when the surface begins to age. An oil finish looks great in the beginning. But, in order to continue looking great, it must be maintained. Oil has a nasty habit of mixing with air born polutants such as jet fuel and taking on surface dirt and grime that have a great tenacity for bonding with the surface. Maintaing a good looking oil finish, in my opinion, is more labor intensive and costly from the standpoint of material expenditures than trditional varnish. Certainly small items such as block shells or interior surfaces can benifit from oiling but, I prefer good old paint or varnish for the big areas that are exposed to the elements.
Jay

[Lew Barrett]

I stand in between Jay and Charles, though in practice, I don't oil the wood prior to varnishing. I have tried the Whitman approach and abandoned it as relatively fruitless. Even she says it's optional, and I know of few pro refinishers who use it today. If I were going to wet sand and rub out these days I'd do it after the varnish is on, not before.

Jay, the approach Michelle is asking about follows what can be (perhaps a bit inaccurately) described as the Whitman Sealing technique, in which several coats of b.l.o. or some other teak oil are wet sanded into the wood along with the slurry. As described by David above, (and I too was confused) the slurry created is allowed to dry and then rubbed and is then believed to help fill the pores of the wood faster than a couple of coats of varnish normally would. Except in my experience, it doesn't. I agree with you that it takes more time without any more benefit.

I'd say varnish the boat with or without the stain (to taste; I prefer the wood natural without stain and will accept the bleaching action of the sun and the variations in color in exchange for what I believe is slightly clearer figure and grain depending on stain choice) but blow off the oil effort. I have never been convinced that the oiling work is worth the effort. And, I have tried it both ways.

[Jay Greer]

I hope you will forgive me for making this blatant statement Lew. But my other profession is that of dealing with the conservation of wooden art objects. My specialty is in the field of modern and archaic finishes, their reproduction, identification and preservation. This includes ancient and modern wooden objects as well as maritime.
Jay

[Charles Burgess]

Here's a photo of a cabin top where I used Tung Oil topped off with varnish from AwlGrip (containing some sunscreen).

http://burgessna.com/images/picture003.png

If you right click and save the photo to your PC, and then open in a regular image viewer you will see the real color of the mahogany. For some reason all web browsers mute the color of my images. :confused:

Basically I oiled the wood on one weekend and varnished the next. I personally prefer the satin to almost flat appearance of hand rubbed oil finish, but I like the added protection of the varnish topcoat.

BTW - the wood has never been stained, and is 10 years old. The light sanding to get the old varnish off is enough to get through the minor sun bleaching - thanks to the sunscreen in the varnish.

[Jay Greer]

Actually, the grain pattern and color of many woods can be enhanced as well as improved in color by the addition of the correct stain or what is known as a mordant. The processes are often an acceleration what time provides for mellowing the finish appearance of finely crafted wooden cabinetry; taking the mundane over the top to the spectacular.
Jay

[Lew Barrett]

Jay, I defer to you, no apologies necessary, please. :D I am a grasshopper at your knees!

[Lew Barrett]

You got that gimmelsmom! :)

You have some of the best, clearest voices on the forum in respect to Charles and Jay so you can take your pick! You will be either right, or wrong, depending on what you do! LOL!

I think you have some options here. Guess what? whatever you do, you get to do it again in a couple of years! :)

[Bob Smalser]

By oiling I do mean the slurry to fill the pores followed by varnish.



If this were my boat I'd strip the Cetol with chemicals and sand out all those crossgrain scratches.

Then you'll have all those empty pores in the mahogany to fill. You can fill them by 1) using a commercial stain-filler, by 2) using varnish by sanding back to the surface after each coat, or by 3) wetsanding using BLO and filling them with the sawdust slurry, which is the most economical method of the three.

Sometimes I use stain-filler like the Brownell's French Red on the right below and on the handles further below. These are basically oil stains thickened with diatomaceous earth used to fill the pores. You paint it on thick, let it set up a bit, and wipe it off across the grain using coarse rags.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302197/41813701.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/21878325/368790362.jpg

Sometimes I wetsand using 320-grit wet-or-dry paper and BLO or boat soup, this soup darkened with pine tar and made quick-drying using Japan Drier:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/21878325/361218946.jpg

In these closeups of Honduras Mahogany you can see the (minor) differences in appearance between the two methods. Much of what you hear is overstated. It's the spar varnish that protects the wood from UV light, and if you keep that coating well-maintained (although few do forever), your wood won't bleach out and require oxalic acid treatments and heavy resanding to renew the color. Oil stains do add another layer of UV protection, but the stains themselves can bleach in the sun and fade, requiring renewal. And every time you restain, your mahogany gets darker.

Your boat. Your choice.

[Jay Greer]

The use of , natural earth pigmented, filler stains will completely obviate fading of the wood under varnish. There are 4,000 year old primitive paintings in many places of the world that still retain their original color as a result of using earth pigments.
Jay

[gimmellsmom]

You got that gimmelsmom! :)

I think you have some options here. Guess what? whatever you do, you get to do it again in a couple of years! :)

I have it! Now to figure out what we want. I suspect I'll see some stain in my future. Once I took my completed piece out into the full sun (not stained, varnish only - first 4 coats cut with thinner) I wasn't entirely satisfied.

As for doing it again in a few years - there was a visiting boat parked next to us this past weekend - not a stitch of brightwork anywhere. I was starting to see the appeal in the plastic boat! :p

Thanks for all the advice - as always - it is greatly appreciated.
Michelle