restoring National 18

[karlsmith]

Hi All
I've inherited a wooden National 18, late 1950s, with planked decks and clinker hull.
It's basically pretty sound, but has been out of the water for a couple of years.
I'm after advice on a couple of points:
To fill in the gaps between planks on the deck, what do people recommend? (not sure if caulking is appropriate)
Do I put the hull in water prior to undertaking any re-paint/varnish?
Someone recommended that I fill the boat to a shallow depth with water mixed with a few kilos of salt, but not sure if I do this prior to, or after, painting.
All advice on materials, sequence of activities, etc. gratefully received!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Hi!

Good for you.

A nice, valuable boat which will repay a little care with a lot of good sailing.

Now then...you've had a mixed bag of advice, there.

For good advice, go here:

http://www.cvrda.org/

Now then, you've worked most of this out for yourself, but to confirm:

1. DON'T put any water inside the boat before launching - this is a racing boat with a delicate and finely engineered hull which is NOT designed to have water inside it.:eek:

2. Be VERY CAREFUL about putting anything between the planks.:eek:

3. Have nothing to do with salt; this isn't a trawler.:eek:

4. Repaint first, get wet later; it's not practical politics to paint wet wood!:)

Have fun!

;)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Oh, do you happen to know which design of National 18 she is?

Might even be this one?

http://www.uffafox.com/uffaace.htm

[Hwyl]

Another forum member has one, I think it's "obscured by clouds"

[Hwyl]

I looked it up, he had the grace to give it a Welsh name which narrowed my search

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94809&highlight=sibrwd

[obscured by clouds]

Good luck with this. What number is she, and where are you based?

Most of the classic Uffa 18's seem to be in Bosham [W Sussex] apparently there's someone there who's done a few.

You also need to contact Mick Kneale of the Nat 18 Association at:

national18@manx.net

who will be thrilled to see another original 18 being restored and can set you right on a load of things.

Also if you need a mast and a boom - I have an ally mast from my 1970 g/f 18 which is most likely to be be spare.

Oh - Photos please- lots of them. They like photos here!

[karlsmith]

Thanks for the advice so far- looks like I can continue sanding and preparing for paint/varnish. I'm assuming some sort of flexible coating will be needed for when the timbers swell on contact with the water.
I suspect the deck planks are too separated to fill the gaps when they swell, so advice sought on this also!
I think it may be an Uffa Fox design; one reply mentioned the lightweight nature of the boat. it is pretty sturdy, however for a National 18

[karlsmith]

Good luck with this. What number is she, and where are you based?

Most of the classic Uffa 18's seem to be in Bosham [W Sussex] apparently there's someone there who's done a few.

You also need to contact Mick Kneale of the Nat 18 Association at:

national18@manx.net

who will be thrilled to see another original 18 being restored and can set you right on a load of things.

Also if you need a mast and a boom - I have an ally mast from my 1970 g/f 18 which is most likely to be be spare.

Oh - Photos please- lots of them. They like photos here!


This came at the same time as I was typing my reply. Thanks also for this; I've been in touch with Mick Kneale, and someone from Bosham came to have a look at the boat with a view to restoring it. He didn't want to commit to the project, however. I'm very reassured having looked at Obscured by Clouds' project- my boat is nowhere near as bad as that.
I'll try to get some pics taken, then the collective brains on this forum can hopefully come up with some suggestions.
Thanks also for the generous offer of a mast- fortunately there is a brand new wooden mast to go with it, still in bubble wrap (an insurance job before my dad died)

[keyhavenpotterer]

John Claridge, Lymington Scow builder, amongst other things, has a National 18 in at the moment for work. Big handsome boat. Wide planks, and was surprised to learn the planks were plywood, had assumed they would be solid wood.

Brian

[karlsmith]

2 more responses to posts: Planks on this are all solid wood, not ply.
Andrew Craig-Bennett suggested I look at the CVRDA website: I did, and by chance came across another of my Dad's old boats, Sula, a Jolly Boat going free to a good home as a restoration project. It's a small world, but I can't face another big project!

[karlsmith]

I've just checked- it is an Uffa Fox design, no. 360 (I think, found the plaque over the weekend, need to check the number when I get home). The boat took part in Brest 92.
By the way, I'm still hoping for some definite answers w.r.t. what to do with the deck! I'll post some pics pretty soon.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, since she is an Uffa Fox design the first bit of good news is that she will be a nice boat to handle (they all are!) and the second is that the orignal drawings will be available from Tony Dixon at a very reasonable price.

http://www.uffafox.com/uffaace.htm

Now, need pictures of this planked deck... otherwise we will just say rip it off and fit plywood*...

*Mind you I have just spent well over £200 with Robbins on two sheets of 4mm Super Elite Plus for an Albacore..lovely stuff but - ouch!

Edited to add - OK, I will be more serious about this deck of yours!

Could possibly have been canvas covered, originally.

It would be worth looking at other N18's. The Class Association site has lists of them:

http://www.national18.com/Boats.html

Edited again to add - if your father was Karl Smith then the number is 260 and she was built in 1964 - still need photos of the deck! :)

[obscured by clouds]

This is Sula [260]

http://www.national18.com/Adverts_files/P1110125.jpg

I'm not sure this is the same boat, since the ad describes it as needing light tlc and ready to go :D.... but then again, if it's been hanging around ashore for a couple of years..............

[andrewe]

Don't ads always say that:D
A

[karlsmith]

Yes, that is the boat, and my memory must be failing- 260 is the number- no desire to hoodwink anyone with the description;) I guess TLC is an arbitrary term, but theres no rot or planking needing replacing etc...:) Mick at the National 18 association kindly placed an ad for me. Hope to post some more pics tomorrow, but I've stripped back the white paint, and replaced the tatty cover with a brand new one.

[obscured by clouds]

Just looking at the bit of deck showing on the photo - painted with that old lightblue deck paint if I'm not mistaken :) - my recollections are that it was a canvas deck paint - so is the fordeck and side decks covered in painted canvas or just laid planks?

[karlsmith]

The decks were all planked, and again you are going to have to excuse my ignorance here- the planks had been covered over in recent years by what appears to be a glassfibre covering that was painted light blue. This came off very easily with a scraper, bar one or two bits in the joints. I have the photos of the deck, and will upload them in a minute to clarify things.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ah.

Yes.

:eek:

Any rot?

[karlsmith]

Fortunately not. You'll see in the pics that there is an area of discolouration towards the starboard stern end of the planks- this isn't rot but the stain from some sort of filler/putty/adhesive/dontknowwhat that was put on.

[karlsmith]

No URL for the pics, sorry! Will try to sort out, in the meantime I'll send direct to you Andrew

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Karl - if you can send the pictures in .jpg format I can host them on my Photobucket account and post them here but I cannot do that with them in .bmp format (files too large)

[obscured by clouds]

looking at the age of Sula and her number 260 [Sibrwd is 276 and around 70 -71], I suspect she will be amongst the last of the wooden 18's ever built, since the new rule glass 18's were designed in around 68.

from that aspect alone she is historically quite important.

The new 18's were overbuilt so as not to grandfather the wooden 18's overnight. Since then of course things have got a lot lighter but an 18 is still a hefty boat.

[karlsmith]

Much of my information is from conversations with my father rather than documents, but I recall him saying something about it being one of the last wooden ones. Andrew- thanks for offer-I'll try to resend to you as jpegs.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

here we are:

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/P7140031.jpg?t=1247833671

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/bow.jpg?t=1247833737

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/P7140032.jpg?t=1247833791

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/P7140030.jpg?t=1247833862

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/P7140028.jpg?t=1247833934

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/P7140029.jpg?t=1247833986

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/P7140033.jpg?t=1247834064

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, well!

So, what wood have we got here, chaps?

Looks to me as if those decks were alternating strips of spruce and mahogany, to give a candy stripe effect, like the side decks on a Mark 2 Firefly, and I bet they were originally edge glued.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thinking about it, if the strakes are still adhering well to the deck beams, I'd really brutalise them with a belt sander and/or a jack plane, to clean them up, and then apply Coelan - you would get the original appearance and watertightness back.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Now, here's my prescription.

It looks as if your father took measures to reduce maintenance - painting what was originally a varnished boat white, and glassing the deck, as he grew older and less enthused with boat maintenance.

You therefore have the option of restoring her to a "bright" (varnished) finish or a painted one, depending on how much scraping and making good you want to do.

She must have looked spectacular with a varnished spruce hull and a yellow and red striped varnished deck.

I would have a think about what finish you want to aim for, but one new factor, since your father's day, is the availability of very durable flexible "varnish type" coatings, notably Coelan, which actually takes less maintenance than paint (but is a d^&* sight more expensive!).

[Peerie Maa]

Don't take much thickness off of the decks. There is an 18 at Roa Island. The owner has sanded and glassed the deck, but he sanded down to the brass edge nails. It would be a shame, as well as weakening the boat, to do the same.

[karlsmith]

Thanks for the advice- given the time involved the cost of Coelan is not a significant factor- if I'm going to do it I may as well do it correctly. The boat was based at Roa Island until I towed it away a couple of weeks ago- I presume Peerie Maa must be talking about the same boat unless there is another one there! Can't see any brass edge nails, though.
Absolutely right, Andrew, about the desire to reduce maintenance- it was originally varnished when purchased in the 70s. I'm sure you are right, too, about the alternating strips as I vaguely recall this when I was a child.

[karlsmith]

Oh, and just to be absolutely clear before I go one step too far- am I to glue the planks/fill in cracks, or will the Coelan do the job? The lower of the pictures show a retro-fitted board at right angles to the deck- presumably to stop spray coming on board, but awkward to sit on the deck now- no problems in removing this, which is my intention?

[Peerie Maa]

No not the same boat. The one I'm thinking of was all varnished, and decked all in spruce, rather than alternating spruce and monogamy.
I would fill the cracks with something flexible, in case the planks start to take up.
How far from Roa are you?

[karlsmith]

Down in Shropshire, about as far from the sea as you can get in Britain! I hadn't realised there was another Nat. 18 there. What do you suggest as flexible filler for gaps? As you can see in the photos, I can just about insert a 1p coin into the gaps in places- this will give an idea of the thicknes I need to fill.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The board across the decks looks as if it is a "breakwater" - a spray deflector - and I'd be inclined to leave it on, from the comfort point of view, or at least to put it back. Otherwise you get spray washing down the deck and into the seat of your trousers all the time.

One of Britain's leading wooden boatbuilders, Malcolm Adkins, lives in Wem, in Shropshire:

http://www.covboat.co.uk/covrest.htm

He's semi-retired, but only "semi", and I can't think where you would get better advice.

See if the decks will clean up leaving a reasonable thickness, first. I suspect they were glued edge to edge and given that they won't now do that,there will be some loss of strength in the deck.

If so, you might try running a hacksaw blade along the wider gaps and then putting some brown parcel tape underneath (get the underside clean enough for the tape to adhere) and filling the gaps with epoxy.

Coelan will fill and bridge the smaller gaps and it is quite "adhesive" (!)

If this is too fiddly then the customary remedy at this point is to rip the old decks off and replace with good quality marine ply - 6mm should ample right for a National 18. Most people get theirs from Robbins in Bristol, who charge like the Light Brigade but do good stuff.

Topsides look as if they have been painted over the varnish and should scrape up OK.

[Peerie Maa]

See if Malcolm Adkins will advise you about the best goop for the seams, and the risk of the planks moving. It may be the the soft wood in between the mahogany will be compressible enough not to cause problems, it depends on what it is. I'm pretty sound at recognising English hard woods, but can't tell what your deck is made from.

[keith66]

Nice to see there are still some 18's around.
One of these was the first boat i ever sailed on, my father restored an Anderson Rigden & perkins one "Phantom" around 1960 she was fast but her topsides leaked when driven hard so he built a glued clinker one from Brunyzeel ply, she was launched in 1963 or 64 named "Marlenemar"no 263. He kept her until 1972 when she was sold away to Blakeney, i beleive renamed "Tipple".
I vividly remember as a child snuggling under the foredeck in the cotton sails & the roar of the water rushing under the lands as she flew across the estuary. Happy days!