minimal offshore cruiser

[wtarzia]

Originally Posted by Dave Wright

Absolutely right! We're re-inventing because so many folks don't know what's been previously done. And we're trying for improvements because most folks just think more about boating more than actually doing it...

--- Well, maybe that is often the case. However, some people who *do* as well as think like the thinking part so much that they cannot be happy with someone else's boat. I'm probably one of those people. But there are so many boats that whatever one designs ones' self is likely to strongly resemble a boat someone else already made ;-) I was designing a sailing outrigger for the Everglades Challenge race, and I thought and thought and sketched and sketched and asked questions, and the more I re-sketched, the more my "ideal" boat started resembling two of canoe-builder Dierkings proven designs, the Tamanu and the Wa'Apa. I stopped the process, though I am a little sad, now. Invention is utterly human and the best thing about humans; we are happy when inventing. -- Wade

[JimD]

Originally Posted by paladin

...I like the simplicity of the Great Pelican...

How about the 20 foot 'Super Pelican'?

Hi,

I'm the new owner of "Dowser" a 20' Super Pelican built in 1990 by John Roumbanis. I purchased Dowser from Jeff Lehman of Platypus boats and am just finishing off glassing the interior and repainting the decks. Currently Dowser is fitted with a large Chinese junk rig, but I also have the original bowsprit to reconfigure her to her lug rig/jib design. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgur...N%26start%3D40

Thelin

[falco de fiume]

For a really small boat for sailing where one might be out of sight of land for several days I would favor Wm Atkins' Blue Bird.

Richard

[dskira]

Originally Posted by donald branscom

When you pass the line of demarcation the US Coast Guard will stop you and if they feel you or your craft are not seaworthy they will not let you proceed.


It has been tried by others.
I have seen craft built with 2x4's and so forth that looked ok but somehow the whole package ,you know cheap boat ,nutty kind of captain, provisions and size of boat all combined to have the Coast Guard escort the person back to the nearest marina.

And ... yes the little craft did have an American flag on it. Did not help.

Oh, and one more thing. Since when have you seen 22-23 foot 2x4's at Home Depot? HUH HUH HUH

Plywood epoxy is not stronger if badly built. It is not the "2 by" or "wood epoxy" which make the difference, it is the quality of the construction.
By the way most of the douglas fir is sold "2by" beautiful, great lenght, and clear. It is a dimension, not a quality status.
Home Depot as nothing to do with any "2 by" of quality. You don't have to go there to find your wood. Any good lumberyard sell "2 by"
It seams to be always the same joke.
Cheers
Daniel

[Sayla]

Mark Smaalder's Wynfall seems like an option in this class

[Lance F. Gunderson]

I like Bolger's Seabird '86 design. Well though out, easy and cheap to build, should get you there and back in style.

[chergui]

Can you build a 22-23' boat that is heavy enough for the weather you could experience offshore? I think I remember reading that the Pardey's preferred a boat with a displacement over 10,000lbs for offshore sailing. I've had my boat now for 5 years, Chuck Paine's Carol at 24', 5700lbs displacment, 8' beam, flush deck, 2700 lbs lead ballast. It's probably one of the most solid boats around for it's size. But I've been in squalls that have blown the boat over 30 degrees with no sails up even around these waters. Pretty sure that's not going to happen with more weight. In 50+ knots and difficult seas I'm not sure what would happen. You get tossed around more that's for sure. Reading Adlard Cole's "Heavy Weather Sailing", I'm not sure a 22' boat would survive a lot of those situations.

The book has some very good tips on things to look for in an offshore boat. Sure you can take a light boat and you might be fine but how much can it take before it's dangerous. That's what I'd like to know anyway

[CapnJ2ds]

Originally Posted by chergui

Can you build a 22-23' boat that is heavy enough for the weather you could experience offshore? I think I remember reading that the Pardey's preferred a boat with a displacement over 10,000lbs for offshore sailing. I've had my boat now for 5 years, Chuck Paine's Carol at 24', 5700lbs displacment, 8' beam, flush deck, 2700 lbs lead ballast. It's probably one of the most solid boats around for it's size. But I've been in squalls that have blown the boat over 30 degrees with no sails up even around these waters. Pretty sure that's not going to happen with more weight. In 50+ knots and difficult seas I'm not sure what would happen. You get tossed around more that's for sure. Reading Adlard Cole's "Heavy Weather Sailing", I'm not sure a 22' boat would survive a lot of those situations.

The book has some very good tips on things to look for in an offshore boat. Sure you can take a light boat and you might be fine but how much can it take before it's dangerous. That's what I'd like to know anyway

As the saying goes; "size doesn't matter". I've been caught out offshore in 50+ knots [and I mean plus!] in a 13m, deep draught, stiff, high freeboard cutter and been laid over in the squalls about 45 degrees under bare poles. Seas weren't that pleasant either!

Amongst many others, Guzzwell's little "Trekka" successfully circumnavigated. I'd guess she'd be like a cork in a washing machine in a storm, but corks float.

All things being equal, it tends to be the crew that gives out before the boat does.

Many years ago - Yea, even before I was born - there was some correspondence in a UK yachting magazine about the best size of boat for blue water voyaging. Someone ended it by saying that in his opinion all boats were too small.

[ishmael]

"Sure you can take a light boat and you might be fine but how much can it take before it's dangerous."

I think, if I may be so bold, that you are asking the wrong question. It's dangerous venturing offshore in a little boat. Dangers are inherent in any boat, at any time. You are surrounded by a medium that will kill you if your little envelope of wood, steel, or fiberglass fails. People drown, often, in the capsize of a row boat or a canoe. Minimum size for drowning a person becomes irrelevant.

To the original header, I think Gile's Vertue. He thought long and hard as he penned that design and was no man's fool.

[norseman]

A folkboat a la Jester with junk rig as Jim D suggested. Pretty fast,too. Slow compared to most cruising boats today,just like mine. 3.5 knots or so average on say a hundred mile leg. I've spent the last three months trying to reach the Biscay via Scotland and the Irish Sea. Usually an average cruising boat like a Bavaria will go twice as fast. Anyway,the ability to heave to is a must.

[floatingkiwi]

I don't feel like I am at sea on a small vessel as much as I feel like my boat and me are one and I am on a big sea.

[paladin]

I've posted this scenario a couple or three times in the last ten-fifteen years......
Leaving Phuket Thailand in the wee morning hours headed in the direction of Madagascar and with a detour to the Seychelles in mind for Sweet Thing to get her natural tan....we encountered a wee bit of unsettling weather. We had been listening to the HF SSB radio and net control out of Hong Kong and it was obvious that we were gonna be in for a bad night. I doubled the heavy drogue on a bridle and swung it from the outrigger bows, with a loose primary control line to the main hull in case one side of the bridle let go (it didn't). We had a couple/three hours before the real nasties hit. We made some hot soup and placed it in a thermos, same with coffee, made some toast, scrambled some eggs, some bacon and put it away. We also got everything under hatches and tied down, sails doubly so.
We were hit about 2 a.m. We were napping when it started blowing hard and the sea was building. We were listening to music, cuddle
d up with a blanket, hot soup, crackers etc....after about 6 hours it started letting up.....Sweet thing sliced some tomatoes, lettuce, got some may for our toast and we had bacon/egg/cheese/lettuce and tomato breakfast sandwiches with hot coffee. I turned on the HF radios......approx 200 miles away a tanker had broken in two and was sinking, all hands were in lifeboats, they reported a 50 foot Al Mason yacht in transit to the new owners, charter crew aboard, had been sending out week maydays all night but were now quiet (no trace ever found). We cleaned up our gear and got it on board. We had drifted 40 miles according to calculations using the drogue.
We headed for the tanker......just as we were arriving the air sea rescue folks also arrived and dropped rafts and gear, and reported another vessel on the way. There were 12 men in rafts, so we made several pots of hot coffee and almost depleted our sugar supply. We had baked the morning before so had 3-4 loaves of sourdough bread to slice up for sandwiches.

[floatingkiwi]

Paladin. A fresh loaf of sourdough bread is not something one would find floating about in the middle of the ocean. Good on ya.
You weathered the conditions with relative ease and the Al Mason was trashed. Was this due ,completely, to your preparing yourself and vessel with the drogue, whilst the fish food fiddled with radio knobs? God rest their poor weary souls, I always wonder what their last moments were like.
Apparently the series drogue is, nowadays , far more efficient connected to the stern.Do you do this?

[wtarzia]

Paladin, was the boat a trimaran? -- Wade

[mafotspa]

It so great. Thanks a lots.

[paladin]

Wtarzia.....Yes, A Brown Searunner 31.....

[weedeater64]

Originally Posted by donald branscom

Perfect for your puposes. Edwin Monks original "VAGABOND" minimal cruiser. 17 feet 3 inches. Three boards on each side. PL glue and screws and circular saw. Plans are basically free by buying a inexpensive book. No fancy hardware.

Would that be the book titled (small boat building) ?

[paladin]

Conway, Arkysaw?....you must be up there near Twitty.....

[weedeater64]

Originally Posted by paladin

Conway, Arkysaw?....you must be up there near Twitty.....

Who dat? Where abouts he/she live?

[rbgarr]

Memories of Conway: Long Live Toad Suck Daze!!

http://www.toadsuck.org/

[Rational Root]

Originally Posted by paladin

Offshore is not for open boat folks except those with a death wish....

One Man's "Death Wish" is another man's "Just for Kicks".

Most of the guys doing "Death Wish" stuff try their damnedest to stay alive. I speak from personal experience, and from knowing a lot of people a whole lot crazier than me.

[floatingkiwi]

Originally Posted by rbgarr

Memories of Conway: Long Live Toad Suck Daze!!

http://www.toadsuck.org/

OK, but how did "Toad Suck Lock", get its name?

[Mike Vogdes]

I have always admired Bruce Binghams Flicka 20, very robust little boat. I see now she's available in kit form, in glass or wood.

http://ckdboats.blogspot.com/search?q=Flicka

[Lewisboats]

Would that be the book titled (small boat building)

"How to build wooden boats with 16 small boat designs"

[donald branscom]

Originally Posted by weedeater64

Would that be the book titled (small boat building) ?

No. "Boat Building" was written by Howard Chappelle.

The book that the Edwin Monk design appears in is "How to Build Wooden Boats" by Edwin Monk. 16 small boat designs.

[weedeater64]

Originally Posted by donald branscom

No. "Boat Building" was written by Howard Chappelle.

The book that the Edwin Monk design appears in is "How to Build Wooden Boats" by Edwin Monk. 16 small boat designs.

Yeah I know about "Boat Building"
I found one by Monk titled "Small Boat Building" on the dngoodchild site

http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_bo...and_design.htm

10 bucks for the one your talking about , I've been thinking of ordering some books, might add that one to the list.

Thanks.

[Alan H]

I know a guy who sailed solo from San Francisco to Hawaii in a Cal 20. So...not sure what that proves, but there you go. Cal 20's are *cheap*. If you wanted to spend the minimal amount of money and go soon, with enough headroom to sit up in and also not have to sleep in the bloody bilge, well..I know this is a wooden boat forum, but honestly, I'd probably buy an old Columbia 24 or 26, replace the rigging, get all the sails checked out, put on a windvane and GO. I bet you could go a long way on $7,000. Also a wonderful choice for something like this would be an old Pearson Triton. If that's too big, then get an Ariel.

Or.... if what you want to do is build a boat, you could look around for plans, buy lumber and a lot of really expensive goops and fasteners, and get going for about $20,000, eight or nine years from now.

[paladin]

If you get one of the old Columbia 24-26's...buy lotsa glue...the bulkheads were dropped in and taped with maybe one piece of fiberglass tape and polyester resin...I've known 2 or three that got into some rocky weather and the insides came loose, one split in half and sank....and in a bay, not the ocean.

[weedeater64]

How about this one?

http://dngoodchild.com/5617.htm

Or Rabl's picaroon?

[jalmberg]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Tom Gilmer's Blue Moon... one of my favorite designs. A proven, small, offshore boat.

-- John

[perldog007]

Originally Posted by paladin

Guys have asked a gazillion times for a cruising boat for minimal offshore cruising that won't break the budget. But they don't want to build an ugly boat. Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising. With points for the boat/hull design, points for aesthetics, points for the sail rig and ease of handling, points for equipment that can be excluded and cheaper solutions used....etc. The days of expensive cruisers have gone the way of the buffalo.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/...ench/index.htm

The Navy exorcised all of my blue water demons at an early age. Minimal cruiser? simple - Bolger Micro.

More Curves desired? Don't see the simple beauty in that minimalist sharpie shape? I would go for a Welsford design.

The Swaggie is one catalog description I find myself reading over and over

Originally Posted by paladin

But they don't want to build an ugly boat

Maybe an intervention? A reality show format perhaps?

As long as I can remember, have always thought boats in general to be things of beauty. Really don't comprehend how some look at a design like the Micro and start spewing forth venom about it's looks.

I look at the blunt shape, consider the capability, read about what they have done, and see a thing of beauty.

In no way does that mean I don't find some boats stunning to look at. Ian Oughtred's work comes to mind.

On the other hand, if somebody can beat the Micro or Martha Jane for a budget built cruiser with minimal offshore capability, then that's a worthwhile contest. There are a slew of them built for a reason.

[Woxbox]

...that won't break the budget.

What sort of budget? That should be the limiting factor in this kind of contest, not an arbitrary length. And we've got to assume the owner just wants to build his own boat, not buy a bargain plastic thing.

Is $10,000 unreasonably low. $20,000 too much?

[weedeater64]

Originally Posted by Woxbox

What sort of budget? That should be the limiting factor in this kind of contest, not an arbitrary length. And we've got to assume the owner just wants to build his own boat, not buy a bargain plastic thing.

Is $10,000 unreasonably low.

Lower. I should think that if you get a bunch of bright folks together, you could get that down quite a bit.

[OconeePirate]

Originally Posted by weedeater64

Would that be the book titled (small boat building) ?

The google books thing can be really neat sometimes. They even have random pages online so you can kind of tell how badly you want the book before you buy it. How to Build Wooden Boats: With 16 Small Boat Designs, by Edwin Monk
For this one they even have some of the simple plan pages listed, so you can get and idea of the designs.

[George Ray]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Yrvind
Sven Yrvind (born April 22, 1939 in Gothenburg, Sweden as Sven Lundin) is a Swedish sailor, boat builder, and writer. He is famous for sailing alone across oceans in tiny boats of his own design. Yrvind is the inventor of the Bris sextant, a small, angle-measuring instrument used in navigation.

******************
Interviews on Furled Sails podcast:
http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=726
http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=727
******************
http://www.yrvind.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
Excerpt:
After decades of studying, designing, building and sailing small, ocean-going boats I have evolved a safe, functional design. Here is a brief description of Yrvind ½, my next boat in that series, embarrassingly named after myself.
Her basic dimensions are length 4.8 meter, or 15 feet 9 inches, beam 1.3 meter or 4 feet 4 inches, draft 0.22 meter or 9 inches. Her intended displacement fully loaded will hopefully be 800 kilos or 1760 pounds.
In designing her I have had invaluable help from Matt Layden. I hope to sail her down the Atlantic, east in the southern ocean to visit a friend Per in Melbourne .. ... ..... .............