Two blue states set to pass TABORs?

[Milo Christensen]

The Taxpayer Bill of Rights type referendums in Maine and Washington are going to be very important indicators of the shift in the public mood away from tax and spend runaway government. Maine and Washington each gave Obama a 17 point margin, but both seem set to pass referendums that will limit the growth of state government spending.

If voters in Maine or Washington state pass a taxpayer bill of rights, it will be a clear sign that even in blue states the public is coming to believe that government spending is out of control and that elected officials can no longer be trusted to rein it in. That's a message that will likely reverberate in Congress regardless of who wins in the New Jersey and Virginia gubernatorial races.

With any luck at all, multiple messages will "reverberate" through the halls of Congress.

[ljb5]

The error in your logic is thinking that party affiliation is correlated to tax policy.

Although the Republicans have been complaining about "tax and spend" Democrats for decades, there is little real evidence that they behave any differently.

There's actually quite a lot of evidence to indicate that Republicans are worse for the economy.

Some people believe California's current fiscal crisis is a result of the handcuffs placed on the state government by the voters. Although no one likes taxes, the sad and unavoidable truth is they are a necessary part of government. Perhaps we ought to just act like adults and recognize that something unpleasant may be necessary.

[PeterSibley]

Nah , just keep borrowing from China .Keep taxes low ,maintain military expenditures .It's gunna work!

[Nicholas Carey]

What taxpayer's bill of rights?

The only thing I can think that might be [mis-]construed as such of is the whack job Tim Eyman's latest initiative, I-1033, which would basically cap state revenues to what they currently are, scaled annually for population growth and inflation.

Tim Eyman's Latest Attempt to F*** Over the State

I-1033: An initiative that could turn Washington into Mississippi

If you think the above are just the libs whining, here's the Seattle Times on the issue:

I-1033 will devastate education, health care and other services

Tim Eyman: Time to give it a rest

More at

http://no1033.com/
http://www.voteno1033.com/
http://www.permanentdefense.org/

The only saving grace is that, given his past track record, if passed, its unlikely survive court scrutiny. Apparently, Tim Eyman and his attorneys are unable to write initiatives that pass constitutional muster (the WA constitution has strict restrictions on the scope of an initiative).

For the uninitiated, Tim Eyman is a local watch/jewelry salesman who has made a second career out of putting ballot initiatives on the ballot, via his PAC, and not conincidentally, skimming cash off the PAC with which to line his pockets.

Come to think of it, he's probably not interested in actually having the initiatives stand up to legal scrutiny -- he'd lose the cash flow that makes him rich.

It's not tax payer bill of rights, its an attempt to extra-constitutionally strip the legislature of its power to tax and spend.

If Eynman really wanted to fix Washington's tax system, he'd work on changing the tax structure to remove the recidivist Business & Occupation (B+O) tax and the high sales taxes -- here in Seattle, we pay 9.5% sales tax. The B+O tax is a tax on gross receipts that can be, depending on how your business is classified, as be high as 1.5%, regardless of whether you turn a profit or not. Some might call it an anti-business tax. Even Bill Gates' dad has proposed replacing those taxes with a state-wide income tax like other sane states.

[StevenBauer]

Mane has voted down TABOR before. Probably will again.


Steven

[I, Rowboat]

My father is a knee-jerk "fiscal conservative" (whatever the hell that means) and a resident of Colorado. He sings the praises of the TABOR act, which I interpret to be a pretty good indication to vote against similar legislation in WA. My wife and I already voted "no" on I-1033 and "yes" on R-71, the pro-homo-marriage referendum. Hooray for the illusion of democracy!

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

Originally Posted by StevenBauer

Mane has voted down TABOR before. Probably will again.


Steven

I'm going to try REALLY hard not to take offense!

Two blue states set to pass TABORs?

I was wondering why I felt so strange. They're getting ready to "pass" me!

[Mrleft8]

Originally Posted by David Tabor (sailordave)

I'm going to try REALLY hard not to take offense!



I was wondering why I felt so strange. They're getting ready to "pass" me!

Kinda like a whole state fart eh, David?

[elf]

Just so you know what happened:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...es.php?ref=fpc

[Chris Coose]

TABOR got shitcanned hard for the third time in Maine. (21 point margin)

Alexander Hamilton recognized in the federalist papers that the rabble should stay away from making laws.

Maine mostly turns away citizen intiatives

[Norman Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Milo Christensen

With any luck at all, multiple messages will "reverberate" through the halls of Congress.

Sorry, Milo... no reverberation.... it was more like a dull 'thud' as it crashed.

[ljb5]

Originally Posted by Milo Christensen

People who object to paying exorbitant state and local taxes can almost always afford to vote with their feet.

People don't generally choose which state to live in based on taxes.

Some say the best example of TABOR is Colorado, which remains a popular place to live because of geography and weather. (more days of sunshine than San Diego!). Since TABOR was implemented in '92, it has been loosened a couple of times because people felt it wasn't good for the state. Since then, Colorado has become a blue state.

California has been a very popular place to live for 150 years based mostly on its geography and major cities. TABOR was defeated in California on the same day that Davis was recalled. California currently has a very restricted tax structure and a horrific budget crisis, yet remains a popular place to live.

[Norman Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Milo Christensen

People who object to paying exorbitant state and local taxes can almost always afford to vote with their feet. And they have been. Leaving those left behind paying more and more for less and less. TABOR is like homosexual marriage. Both are taking more time than their proponents would like, but both will keep at it until they prevail.

You were the one who said "The Taxpayer Bill of Rights type referendums in Maine and Washington are going to be very important indicators of the shift in the public mood away from tax and spend runaway government."

If they were indicators, as you said, isn't what's being indicated the fact that the TABOR idea isn't flying?

You can't have it both ways... if it's an indicator, like you said, then you're simply wrong..... right?

[David G]

I generally like the initiative notion. I think people should be able to promote policy that is not being addressed - for whatever reasons - by their elected representatives. Oregon has a long and successful history with the mechanism. In 1908 we reformed election laws and became the first state to choose Senators by general election. In 1912 the initiative process made the women of Oregon the first in the nation to gain the right to vote. In 1930 voters directed the cleanup of the Willamette River - hitherto massively polluted by raw sewage and the pulp/paper mills. In the late 40's a rising young Republican firebrand succeeded in establishing a mechanism for redistricting after each census. Reapportionment hadn't been done for 50 years prior to that in Oregon.

Sometimes, though, it is abused. That's unfortunate. What irks me here in Oregon is when some group gets a notion, collects signatures, gets it before the voters and has it defeated... then the following cycle, they repeat the same process... even though the polling numbers haven't changed, nor has their proposal.

There's a fellow here in Oregon that does that repeatedly. He also seems to make a Real Nice living thru the process. His issues tend to be ideologically very conservative (though there have certainly been instances of liberals doing the same sort of thing)... and funded by big-money donors from out of state. So - give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they figure they presented their arguments badly, and want a second chance. SIGH - all right give it another shot. I don't recall that he's ever won the second round, either. There have been times, though, when he's even tried a third time on the same ballot measure. No change in public attitudes. Poll numbers remain the same. No real support for their proposals... and yet, there they go again. Quite aggravating waste of time and energy. I don't appreciate being subjected to the fallout from his (or anyone's) ideological crusade. If you feel that you're on the progressive cutting edge of policy, and that public perception just hasn't caught up... then give it a few election cycles. Run some educational campaigns. Do more polling. If it ever appears that the public is moving in your direction give it another shot. But for now... give it a rest!

[elf]

The tragedy is that reducing the amount of tax collected does nothing to address the two core problems - graft in goverment and unsustainable population growth. TABOR is a great example of people failing to acknowledge to real sources of the problems, thus simply impoverishing the wider community while making no impact on the problems.

[Tylerdurden]

Never a fan of Tabors, I am a fan of making sure politicians who feed at the trough and raise taxes needing raincoats to walk around town less they be covered in shite. That's the only thing that will stop it.
Drop a few tons of manure on those who do it to us.

They have been using fear against us, time for them to taste it.

[Norman Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Milo Christensen

Soak the Rich, Lose the Rich: Americans know how to use the moving van to escape high taxes.

Two comments:

1) That was positively the dumbest editorial I've seen in years... it left out so many contrary arguments as to render it nothing more than propaganda for the wealthy class.

2) The ingratitude of the wealthy is utterly amazing. In the past three decades, income tax rates on the wealthy have dramatically dropped... they've been the beneficiaries of whopping tax cuts across an entire generation. In Reagan's era, the top tax bracket was 50%, down from even higher levels previously.... dividends used to be taxed as ordinary income, and are now taxed like long term gains. One effect: skyrocketing gains for the very wealthy. One consequence: budget deficts. The amnesia: failing to remember one of the important reasons.

Freakin' ingrates.

[Norman Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery

Whenever I begin to feel oppressed by the level of state and local taxes I pay as a resident of Jefferson County, Kentucky, I cross over the 2nd Street Bridge into Indiana and look around a bit. I always return feeling warm, fuzzy and proud of my community.

I'm nearing the end of a year-long effort, in which I've been taking a huge entrepeneurial risk, in developing a new product (along with two partners). I haven't earned a single penny in all this time... but if it al works out, I expect to earn a great deal of money... and I will inevitably end up paying big taxes...

...and if/when that happens, I'm not going to complain one bit about those taxes. Not at all. They will be the price I pay for earning that money, and my contribution to the nation. I hope to be very successful, and maybe even very wealthy.... but I'm going to remember the opportunity this country gave me... and not whine like a greedy asshole about giving back.