A question for debate...

[uncas]

This should be interesting.. We are constantly discussing the importance of having a woodie surveyed when looking to buy etc. We have also commented on the fact that there are just not that many surveyors who know how to deal with a wooden boat..

My question.. up for debate is simple.. What do you expect from a surveyor?

I look at it this way.. for a surveyor to have determined that Uncas had a Horn Timber issue, he would have had to pull a few planks...I personally don't expect a surveyor to do that..
So what, in your mind is a good wooden boat survey and is one possible?

[rbgarr]

I would prefer a catalog of the particular faults found, with pictures, listed with his opinion of what about them needs fixing, in what priority and why. Forego writing up the information that I can get from the broker's listing and pictures. If he can't do that or agree to it, I'd wonder if he is the right person for the job, and so not be the best use of his time and my money.

[uncas]

Dave.. yup.. I should have mentioned under update.. that pictures are gonna be sent.. hard copy.. not by e-mail.. So, taking that into account and knowing they are somewhere.. I sense this guy did okay... pictures unseen....
Anything specific... I like the idea of a priority list though...

[rbgarr]

When you get the pictures, call him to see if you can come up with a priority list together considering how you will use the boat, time frame and funds available. It would help you decide whether she's the boat for you at this time.

[HR]

I agree with Dave. I find that some surveyors spend way too much time measuring, listing equipment (which as Dave points out can be determined from the broker's listing) and stating the obvious. I guess for completeness (and to avoid lawsuits) they have to do some of that, but I would rather pay for their insight into the condition of the boat and what needs to be done.

The last boat I purchased was surveyed by Capt. Haley and he identified the problem areas, and prioritized them into three categories. The first priority items had to be completed for insurance, the next level was to be repaired within 2 or 3 seasons and the lowest level were, well, not urgent but should be looked at over time. Very useful information.

[uncas]

Dave.. I have actually chatted with him.. re.. what I would like to do.. etc.. not nec. about funds as that is out of his jurisdiction.. but about what I am looking to do.. I think a face to face may help though..

Actually, this is a generic question.. your responsies are good... I just hear so many people say a survey is important.. can't find one to do an adequate job.. no one knows wooden boats.. so, what do others expect from a surveyor..?

[sdowney717]

Wooden boat surveyors should assume the boat is full of problems until proven innocent.

I actually heard that some surveyors consider wooden boats a hazard to all who get involved with them.

All buyer perhaps should expect they may face major repairs ahead, regardless of what a surveyor says.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Wood.htm

[Lew Barrett]

Back "when" I simply expected a surveyor to look at a boat, determine the condition and faults and say; "yeah, this represents fair value" or "walk away." I would expect them to find all major deficiencies (not talking about missing a minor point or failing to find a bad butt block hidden behind a water tank). However, these days I think I have more of a relationship with "my surveyor" (I know who he is and he knows who he is) and I have been taught to expect something more than just an efficient and honest appraisal.
If you have or find a good surveyor, that person should be a true expert in the field, and someone that is an ongoing part of your team. They should have time in rank. They should have been a shipwright, a captain, know the ABYC codes, understand ship's and boat's systems. Anything less and you're just going through the motions.
Such a person can really be a handy resource because they can be counted on to discuss methods of work and how to attack a problem, as well as what to do to eliminate or minimize problems in the future. They should be a resource and a source of ideas. They should be senior, and they should know the waterfront and the boats on the scene. That's what I expect of a surveyor, and happily, it's possible to get that here in Seattle. I expect a relationship, because a surveyor isn't somebody that you use just once if you have a boat you're planning to keep.
Jamie, I wouldn't expect a surveyor to pull a couple of planks out of hand to examine a suspected problem, but I'd know I'd gotten a good man if he did say" "I suspect a major problem, thus and such but we can't explore it without opening up a hole and doing some destruction. I'd be happy to help you organize that as long as you understand the action and the consequences." A great deal of the value of the survey comes from an owner being able to interpret the information and presentation given. And, there is the requistite that trust be established between the parties so that it's clear to all that what needs saying can be said without worrying about "feelings."

[SV Papillon]

A good screening method is to call a reputible insurance co. and get a recommendation. Hagerty was helpful for me. They are the ones who have to deal with the poor survey in the end and set a fairly high bar.
Jake

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

This is a good question, but I think it has more than one answer. Here are some thoughts based on my experience.

First, I think it's hard to find a really good wooden boat surveyor. Most of the trade has moved on to glass, or steel, and the methodology changed with the materials. For a surveyor to understand where the problems might occur on a wooden boat, he/she needs to know how a wooden boat is built in the first place, which is in itself quite complex, especially on some boats. They need an in depth knowledge of where trouble spots can be found based on design characteristics, and experience. I'm sure there are good surveyors for wooden boats on the east coast of the USA, but around here, it's thin pickings.

Second, How much can you expect for the average survey fee? Around this area the typical survey is about 14-16 dollars a foot. The surveyor wants to look at the boat out of the water, but reasonably intact to assess equipment inventory, and probably will take a good day to look over the whole boat. They will then go back to their office, consult their notes and write up a report.

Third, Where does liability start and stop for an inspection which essentially only took about 8-10 hours? If the owner was knowledgeable, and the purchase was a large dollar amount, I assume the process starts to change. If I were spending 100k plus on a boat, I would engage a surveyor perhaps, but I might also consider finding some individual experts in several fields, including electrical, engines, boatbuilding, and so on. It might cost me more, but in the long haul it might pay off. I think this is especially true on an antique or classic boat.

I'm not sure I would call a surveyor if I was buying a boat of under 40 feet and under 50k. I feel confident enough in my own abilities to see where defects might lie, and how much they cost to repair. My own boat, (1964 36 foot Chris Craft) came with a survey that was a year old. It was performed by a reputable company. It basically touched on only a few things: The absence or presence of rot, the integrity of the structure, the basic condition of the electrical and plumbing system, and the appearance, but not running conditions of the engines. I bought the boat based on it's structural condition, which I had a pretty good look at before I bought her. The surveyor thought the boat waas in good overall condition, but needed cosmetic work. Since then, I have done over 1500 hours of restoration, including rebuilding both engines, replacing plumbing system components, a new fridge, etc etc... You get the idea. I knew the mechanicals were tired, just because of their age. Forty years is forty years... things need to be renewed.

I've known more than a few people who have bought wooden nightmares, surveyed or not. Older wooden boats always always (did I say always) have some issues. It's the nature of the beast. If someone is not prepared to invest some additional monies, or some time, don't buy an older wooden boat. That said, I think finding someone who has a good background in wooden boats, with some significant experience in either restoration or building, is the kind of surveyor to look for. That said, it's "Buyer Beware" and it's up to that person to organize the due diligence. Wooden boats are not generally a good investment. Some may hold their values better than others, but vintage wooden boats are big holes in the water to pour money into. Still, there is a romance to wooden boats that is undeniable, even to most of the frozen snot crowd. Romance costs.

[brad9798]

That's why, in addition to my survey, I crawled around the bilge and did my own survey ... I caught more than the surveyor!

If one knows what to look for, one can 'assist' the survey process immensely ...

[Hughman]

Originally Posted by sdowney717

I actually heard that some surveyors consider wooden boats a hazard to all who get involved with them.

This is arrogance stemming from ignorance. More than one boat owner has needlessly abandoned a project because of bad advice.

[py]

Its probably unfair to criticise the surveyor purely on the basis of the written survey. You need to be there and discuss with him throughout. Did he work all over the hull, tapping with a small hammer, to catch any difference in tone? Can be a clue to rot, fastening problems, caulking problems. Or did he just stand back and take a look from each side, and seeing no obvious holes or lumps pronounce the hull sound. Your survey just reads like its written by someone who works with plastic. The hull/deck seam leaks? Like its a simple seam where they join the hull and the deck with some goodge in between to keep the water out. Seems wierd to me that if some planks, and bits of the keel and sternpost and rudder post and deck have all been replaced, there are still issues with the "front of the cabin", the "hull/deck seam", a leak over the "toilet" and the bit of wood under the companionway. There's no indication at all that he's really had a poke around in the innaccesible areas. Has he even lifted the floorboards? Under bunks, down under the engine, poked in behind the fuel and water tanks. How are the frames under the "toilet", and shower if there is one. Has there been condensation, and rot, behind the icebox? If the mast collar is rotted away, how's the mast step, and the mast itself. Oh I forgot, that was up on a rack, too high to see. Has he heard of a ladder? He talks about staining on the interior wood. Does he understand its a wodden boat, and the interior wood is also the exterior wood? Its not just a bit of trim glued on to look pretty. Does he say what she's fastened with? What are the keel bolts made of? So many things he just hasn't touched upon. His valuation seems to me to be pretty high, for a boat that clearly needs a fair bit of work. She's got a good lot of rot and leaks, been out of the water for quite a while, assume the electrics and electronics are shot, assume she needs a new engine. The rigs probably in need of work too, new standing, running at least. New sails? She ain't worth much.

[pcford]

Gotta say, Jamie, py seems to be on to something....hull/deck joint!!! WTF? The survey certainly does not follow the form of surveys done around here...maybe there is a regional difference. The survey does seem strange to me.

Is it too late to get Uncas back?

[uncas]

I put this here.. not only for myself regarding the survey I had done but to also see what some expect from a surveyor.. Pcford and py.. good points for my case. specifically. I'm heading there as you know, this coming week to look at everything myself...talk to everyone etc...
Certainly, it would be the best to have been there for this... but in this case it wasn't next door or in the next state.

I actually put this up to see what others thought a good survey entailed.. I have gotten some good answers on the generic side from a few as well as specific ones in my case..

I donno.. here is a thought py.. Maybe the guy doesn't realize that I have been on boats for years and that he was talking/writing to a moron.. which leads back to the ideas pointed out.. develop a good raport with the surveyor..first...

[Hwyl]

Jamie, I'd love to see a surveyor who would stand behind their work, wothout the disclaimer paragraph at the end, that says something like: I think this boat is O.K. but if my opinion is wrong you have no recourse". I once took over an Aluminum boat, as soon as we hauled it you could see she had major electrolysis problems (bubbling on the paint around the through hulls). I later saw the purchase surveyors report, it said something like "paint around through hulls should be sanded and repainted". $200,000 (In 1983) later, we had the problem somewhat sorted.

Back to your specific question, I would use the opinion of forum posters in the area to find a surveyor.

[uncas]

Gareth... That's why I chose Capt. Haley to look at Uncas.. and probably didn't charge me after doing so.. figured I had enough problems.. Yup recommendations.
Regarding Airlie.. I tried to do that.. should have done more...
Well, will see what happens..

pcford.. actually I could if I want to wait three years...to get Uncas back...
By that time, I'll be looking for a trawler....be too old to sail...

[Excalibur]

I'm not certain that I'm a good one to answer, seeing how I just had a long thread going as to my bad first choice for a surveror, but... Make certain that you are willing to pay for what you want, and communicate that to the surveyor. It is manifestly unfair to ask for an insurance survey ($10-12 dollars a foot around here), when what you really want is a pre purchase inspection ($16-18 a foot). You can't expect a detailed PPI if you are just paying the guy to tell you if the boat is insurable. I was saved by the guys on this forum telling me the first survey didn't make sense, and by the extreme good fortune of having access to a local wood builder and repairer, who confirmed the forum's long distance opinion. I then got the second surveyor opinion, and life has been good since. The best thing I have determined to do is to make a detailed inspection yourself first, even if you are a newbie. Then, pay for the PPI with the PRIOR understanding that you will be picking the surveyor's brain during the PPI. You will be much happier for the time and money spent.

[George Roberts]

A person who buys a wooden boat should know enough to not need a survey.

If you need a survey to determine that ribs are broken, you lack basic skills.

If you need a survey to determine if parts are rotting, you lack the basic skills.

A survey should be a substitute for your skills when you are need to purchase a boat sight unseen. The surveyor should be as good as you are. Insurance surveys are just that - the insurer is buying into your boat sight unseen.

[ishmael]

Knowing how the critters go together is important for potential owners. You can't just shuffle it off to some "expert". But I think, from what I've read of your posts, that a good surveyor may have picked up the horn timber issues by pulling some fastenings.

Hard to say. People who do this with intent for awhile get to know when something smells wrong. They use physical tests, but also their noses/intuition. They are the ones you want to hire, and you're right, there aren't enough of them around.

[Kaa]

Originally Posted by George Roberts

A person who buys a wooden boat should know enough to not need a survey.

If you need a survey to determine that ribs are broken, you lack basic skills.

If you need a survey to determine if parts are rotting, you lack the basic skills.

LOL. And how exactly are you expected to acquire these skills?

"Good judgement is the result of experience. Experience is the result of bad judgement"

Kaa

[mariner2k]

About 12 years ago I had a survey done. Keel bolts were supposed to be fine. During the first sail of the season my 10,000 lb ballast parted ways with the ....rest of the boat.
Follow up: I poured a new ballast and re- attached it myself, through new floors. Took two years to complete.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

A follow up to this thread: I require a survey this spring for insurance purposes. The insurance company isn't going to take my word for it, but nevertheless, I have started to write a survey of my own for the boat. It will detail the history, the build characteristics, what to look for in Chris Craft cruisers in terms of deficiencies and trouble spots, and, of course, the significant work I have done on this boat over the last four years. All the of the 'watch, do, think about' plans will be included. I will also include up coming work that will be done this spring. I plan to give it to the surveyor after he/she looks at the boat. I also plan to send it to the insurance company.

[Jonathan Kabak]

I have been thinking about what I've wanted to say in this post for several days now. Everyone brings good points to the table, but I thought I would share mine.

Any time you relly on someone else to make up for a personal lacking in expertise you are opening up yourself to dissappointment at the least and dissatisfaction or worse at most. Many, oh hell I'll say it most recreational sailors focus their learning on the underway skills necessary for their vessel, saving the care and maintenance stuff for someone else. When things are not good people call in the pros. Calling in a pro because you have a job and don't have the time is certainly legitimate (professionals should be able to do a more efficient job) but that doesn't mean that what they do should seem like black magic.

Whenever you employ the services of an "expert" you do not escape the responsibility that you hold for knowing what is going on. If I hire a diesel mechanic to work on the engines I better be conversant in the subject matter to one: ensure that he is doing an appropriate job; secondly to gain the most value from the contracting of his or her services. This is no different when you hire a surveyor. Being specific with your desires is equally important. Are you looking for good news (insurance value) or bad (what do I need to do to make this vessel safe)?

As to the report that is written, several folks said that they wished they spend less time measuring and listing equipment, but that is part and parcel of a survey report. The surveyor is creating a document for public viewing. If someone out of the blue was to look at the report it should have the standard stuff on it.

The surveyor that I use regularly (and if you are interested in his services I'd be happy to pass on his contact information) is that "senior on the waterfront" that was mentioned above. He regularly works as a project manager for a major naval architecture firm, he has run any number of commercial and educational sailing vessels, in general he is the guy you want on your side. Above all else he is approachable, honest and clear with his intentions. Remember every Tom, Dick and Harriett can take a "Learn to be a Marine Surveyor" course and get a piece of the action. It's just like getting a Master's License; it doesn't mean you can operate a vessel.

Okay go ahead a tear me apart....

JK

[Excalibur]

I agree with Jonathan wholeheartedly. But I will say that while most recreational boaters might not know all they should about their boats, I doubt if those particular boaters are on this site. I figure a lot of us are here to learn, some are here to teach (thank you, thank you, from a learner), and most of us do both. Learning about old wooden boats is why I'm here. I know a hell of a lot more than I did, almost enough to realize how little I know I may never do a major repair to my old wooden boat, but I'll be d***ed if I'll let someone else work on her without me having a clue as to what he's doing. I was very specific with my surveyor. He said "What do you need from this survey?" I said "I need a survey for insurance. I am going to pay you for a PPI because I want to know what the most important issues are. Can I follow you around and learn?" If he has said no, I would have found another surveyor. As it was, he was happy that I wanted to learn.

[q240z]

I'd say that most regular participants to this forum have no practical need for a survey. They are, for all intents and purposes, already experts. I am not, but am capable of learning and willing to try. I relied on a surveyor to make up for my own deficiencies. It turns out that this expert of 30 odd years was incompetent at what really mattered--seeing things that I could/did not--but rather excelled at stating the obvious and measuring things.

I expected that the surveyor had:
* examined all of the frames that were readily accessible or accessable through hatches (even those that require rolling back carpeting or opening lockers).
* used a flashlight to better see in dark areas.
* poked at each and every area above the waterline where the paint was obviously bubbled up, and tapped with a hammer randomly and at suspect areas as well.
* known what it means for wiring to be up to the ABYC standard.

Had the surveyor taken the time to roll back some carpet and lift a hatch or two, to say nothing of reporting a more thorough assessment of the planks with rot in them, I suspect that I would not have purchased Libertarian; not because the boat wasn't worth the asking price, but because the required repairs far exceed my current experience/skill level and tool collection.

[Gary E]

Anyone ever consider hiring a plumber to bring his TV camera on a snake to look in areas that you cant?

[Woxbox]

A person who buys a wooden boat should know enough to not need a survey.

A good survey in hand will pay for itself and then some when it comes to negotiating the price. If the expert who wrote the survey says the boat needs $10,000 in work, you've got a point to argue. If you say the same thing, the owner's less likely to budge on the price. No matter how much you know, a good survey doesn't cost anything, it's a bargaining tool that saves money.

[SV Papillon]

One aspect that doesn't seem to be getting much coverage is the function of a surveyor as a unbias apraiser of the boat. This, it would seem is the sole purpose of having a survey. The buyer is hiring a professional to evaluate the the boats condition apart from their own opinions or the sellers. Weather the buyer feels they invented the tree or they have never stepped foot on a boat before the surveyor should give the same thorough evaluation of the boats condition and fair market value. For the expierianced builder owner who will most likely know exatly what they are buying it should confirm their own opinions, possibly finding things they missed. For the new owner it will tell them exatly what they are looking at.

This is taking for granted that the surveyor is knowledgable and professional, merely commenting on the nessesary function a survey provides for any purchase.


Jake

[Lew Barrett]

Originally Posted by q240z

I'd say that most regular participants to this forum have no practical need for a survey.

Not so. Maybe not to find and select a good boat, as after a while you figure out when to run and when to whip out the checkbook, but everybody that stays at a dock needs insurance. You won't get that without a survey. So for better or worse, the system is set up to demand a surveyor. While you're at it you might as well find a good man to help you as part of your team. Anybody who actually believes they know it all (with the possible exception of the few doyens who do seem to know almost all of it, and for whose presence the rest of us are grateful) certainly will feel they have no need of a surveyor. There was a time I felt that way, that surveys were an annoying but neccessary evil that came along with ownership, however, that time has passed for me. A survey is, or should be, a maximum learning experience and an opportunity to create a catalog of what you have and what yet needs to be done. This, along with a calander of priorities and suggestions to accomplish the work are the basics. I see my boat in a unique way because I am invested in her. Give me a smart, highly trained and experienced and honest man without the investment, and you have given me a fresh pair of eyes and ears with which to assess the situation. If there's a boat owner out there who honestly doesn't feel that an independant view of this sort is not of value, they simply haven't been in the game long enough.

[Puka]

"This is arrogance stemming from ignorance. More than one boat owner has needlessly abandoned a project because of bad advice."

I bought a huge project because of bad advice.

Personally, you need a very well recommended surveyor specific to wb's

One of my future criterias will be to go and sail her hard. If the owner
will permit, and run a mile if they look nervous.

Proves the pudding.

[WoodenBNut]

Yes, I just had my 1962 CC Cruiser Surveyed 3 weeks ago. To find a competent wooden boat surveyor in the area I contacted several wooden boat owners that store their boats in the same shed that I do. The surveyor that they recommended was very good and competent. *I needed the survey for the insurance company. If anyone needs a good/competent wooden/and other boat marine surveyor in the upper Ohio Great Lakes area, I can recommend one - just give me a shout/email. Also, after the survey I have now have more confidence in the boat when I am out on the lake. But of course, my wallet is a little/lot lighter for it too!!

[sdowney717]

Lets say If I own the boat and need an insurance survey then

Make sure the surveyer you find is acceptable to your insurance company for a wooden boat. I found the only insurance company I could get coverage with was Boat US.

Once they find out you own a wooden boat, most insurance companies will refuse any coverage.
I suppose even if you own your own dock, not having liability coverage is foolish.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Liability insurance is a must for sure... at the moment I am insuring the entire boat, and it's expensive for what I get in my mind. I am considering dropping back to just liability... which is very very cheap. ($150.00 a year)

As to buying wooden boats based on bad advice, anyone buying a 25 year old + wooden boat should already be prepared for expensive and toil oriented surprises.

[Puka]

"As to buying wooden boats based on bad advice, anyone buying a 25 year old + wooden boat should already be prepared for expensive and toil oriented surprises."

Too true, and I bet a few purchases expectations change when they get more confident with their acquisition. From sedate Sunday cruiser, to ardent can racer.
Well, I confess, it was in my case anyway! The brief for the survey I had done did not exactly reflect that new purpose.
Little wonder Pukka showed her years so abruptly.

All part of the journey tho'. The appreciation just deepens.

[michigangeorge]

I have hired many surveyors, including some of the most highly respected men in the industry. Never again! They are working at odds with the potential buyer by trying to walk that fine line between the broker (many referrals), seller (potential bad mouthing) and buyer(likely only a one-shot deal). I purchased a Stuart Knockabout with a very high survey recomendation only to find thousands of dollars of needed repairs on what was a simple open daysailor! Other purchases were more complex but in each case the surveyor missed glaring deficiencies.
From now on I will travel and perform my own survey so I know 1st hand what I'm buying.

[sdowney717]

Peter, who is your insurance company and what type of boat is it?
Your rate is very good.
I think I pay 350 per year Boat US for liability on a 37 1970 egg harbor.
They have raised rates due to hurricane risks.
Is it cheaper to insure in the great lake region?