WalMart rant!!

[brad9798]

In FAVOR of Walmart ...

Why do we continue to bash Walmart? Sweatshop labor? Low prices? Low wages ... not promoting from within?

WRONG!

71% of WM managers started on the floor ...

Average full-time wage is 10.51 per hour (Fed. min. is $5.15)

When we look at '3rd world sweat shops' in Asia/Latin America ... we need to understand the alternatives ... would you rather make clothes for WM or till a field with grandpa's femur in the hot sun all day?

Even in those factories, workers make as much as 2x what they could make anywhere else ... WM doesn't force them to work there ... they CHOOSE to work there because they are desperately poor, and this is their best earning oppty.

Flash back 100 years in the US ... and Europe ... same type of labor.

Fortunately, we were able to accumulate some capital which, in turn, facilitated better technology/work conditions.

Furthermore ... small town America has nothing to do with Walmart ... at least not statistically ... mom and pop stores closed before most WM stores took over ... do some research.

The shopping malls that started 50+ years ago announce the beginning of the end for main street USA!

WM has 6200 stores ... and serves 127,000,000 customers per week ... nearly 3,000 customers a day/store! So over 50% of those that say they NEVER shop there are (statistically) full sh*t!

Unions are another big WM basher ... because they want $$ MORE THAN WM! Hell, even at a MINIMUM due of 19 per month ... per employee ... it would generate over TWO BILLION a year for the union involved. It ain't about the worker ... it's about the two billion.

Hell ... are folks aware that WM gave TWENTY MILLION in cold hard to Katrina victims ... and promised victims jobs ... IF they wanted them?

We have two choices ... perhaps more ... #1-the good old weren't always good ... my great grandfather bitched about my grandfather's world ... grandfather about my dad's ... dad about now. Our memories are glorified ... they come with a free pair of rose colored glasses!

Give in to pay 10-50% more ... and we can QUICKLY eliminate the WM's of the world.

Or ... we can get over ourselves, and realize it ain't toofless tony and his wife with curlers in her hair that now shop there! It is upper middle-class America ... middle class ... AND the working poor.

The average family saves over 2000 bucks a YEAR by shopping at WM!
bottom line is that we should:

a) put our money where our mouth is, or ...
b) shut the f-ck up and admire the near perfect model of capitalism!

I'll DUCK NOW!

:D

[Canoeyawl]

You can get good cheap dog food at Walmart...

[Old Sailor]

There's a Target coming to my town in June.(And my daughter just got a job with them.)
Old Sailor

[ishmael]

A couple things.

One. Walmart is predatory. It will come in and underprice everyone in an attempt to force them out of business, and then when they die the prices go up.

Two. It's such an impersonal place. They constantly move stuff around, and the personnel don't know squat.

I try to buy from small local merchants, but I do buy my jeans and t-shirts from Walmart, mostly because there aren't any small clothing stores around anymore, in part because of Walmart.

To be honest, I've bought other things there too, but not without protest. The local one is full of fat-butted matrons with a couple ill-mannered brats in tow, and a cart full of the crap de jour. It always feels like the worst of ravenous America, spending on credit cards it can barely pay.

Don't like the place. It's like stepping into Oz, without the entertaining presence of a wizard.

[Phillip Allen]

Ish...I'd be curious to know what percentage of all retail stores are NOT predatory...come to think of it, how many M & P's spend time and money supporting their competition?

(Is it Kool-Aid time yet?)

[peb]

Why bash Walmart?

Because they have a history of wiping out small town business. It used to be, Walmart was a small town store. It hit the metropolitan areas relatively late in life. And I know of towns that Walmart came in and wiped out business, late 70s early 80s. I know of one town that walmart closed up shop 3 years later when it realized the town was not profitable. Left them with no local retail.

Because an average fulltime wage of $10.51/hour is too low. Note, this is an average. It ammounts to $20,000/year. How can you possibly say with a straight face that a company whose full time staff average a salary of $20K/year is ok.

Because they have a history of lying. remember the "made in the USA" add campaign.

The average American family saves 2000/year shopping at Walmart? Well, with our economy going to service sector jobs, it will become imperative that employers in the service sector start paying a fair wage. There is a price on that $2,000.

[ishmael]

Phillip,

Small merchants have always played price games. Competition. The best place to buy Levis when I was a kid was Art's Mens Store. Herb had a line on the Levi family, and you couldn't find cheaper dungarees anywhere in Cleveland. Because I worked there, I got them at cost. But no one can compete with the Walmart juggernaut. They've got a tremendous power of price, and the Asian machine churning out stuff to back them up.

[huisjen]

Brad, do you own stock? ;)

Dan

[Keith Wilson]

Because an average full time wage of $10.51/hour is too low. Note, this is an average. It amounts to $20,000/year. I agree with peb. Consider also that this average includes quite a few people making megabucks, and not even the ghost of health insurance for most, and the average Mall Wart employee is probably eligible for food stamps. No, Walmart is not the devil incarnate, but I still won't shop there.

[Norman Bernstein]

I agree with peb. Consider also that this average includes quite a few people making megabucks, and not even the ghost of health insurance for most, and the average Mall Wart employee is probably eligible for food stamps. No, Walmart is not the devil incarnate, but I still won't shop there.

I've always viewed Walmart as a good news / bad news kinda thing.

The good: Walmart creates jobs, and sells stuff cheap.

The bad: Walmart jobs basically suck, and Walmart does force smaller independent retailers out of business.

On that last point: I have more than a passing familiarity with that phenomenon, albeit on a slightly more specialized level. When I started my company, to manufacture and market the TideTracker (r) Handheld Tide and Current Computer, West Marine was my most important customer. 5 years later (when they consolidated their stranglehold on the marine products retail business), West Marine essentially forced me out of business... by demanding conditions and prices that made it impossible for me to continue... I'm talking about extraordinary, truly unneccesary, and draconian conditions, like demanding that I purchase product liability insurance of $2 Million dollars, naming West Marine as the payee.... and insisting on the right to deduct the value of returned product from my invoices without returning the supposedly defective product, unless I was willing to pay them $50 for each return. If I failed to agree to those terms, they insisted that I provide them with a $1000 credit.... essentially, an extortion demand.

When companies overwhelmingly dominate their industry, competition becomes a thing of the past... and since the ONLY motivation of ANY business is to make money, their suppliers become their victims.

[S.V. Airlie]

I have nothing really against WalMart..except I am sorry to see small mom and pop stores dying out. The local hardware store, well, as of this weekend is now gone.. Not so much WalMart but Home Depot.
We had.. and it is still there, a small mom and pop store in Cooperstown. It was homey, which WalMart can't be. Perhaps that is what is wrong. Anyway, people charged things at this mom and pop. Those who did had a little handwritten tab pinned to the wall with headings like Homer, Fred W. Freddy boy.... The person would come in, buy some stuff, and the amount would be written down on his tab.
Now that I do miss along with being called by name etc..etc...more personal I guess.

[geeman]

Walmart demands to be the ONLY game in town,they want no competition at all.Thats NOT free enterprise.Walmarts aim is to strangle hold and kill competition,they want none.
Walmart demands access to their venders books so they effectively run their venders company.
Walmart FORCES venders to use over seas venders so Walmart can control their venders costs to manufacture product.That to my mind is NOT free enterprise.
Walmart DOES give money to charities and local areas,which is solely for PR.
Walmart hired a PR firm to "make the public aware" of what a good citizen Walmart is.Instead of tackling their problems head on.
Not to mention the THOUSANDS of labor abuses that Walmart has racked up against them in court.Yes any large company will have some legal problems, but Walmart attitude is "we'll do it till we get caught,then claim the head office didnt know it was happening.
BTW, Walmart is now scaling down product choices,you wont find "anything you need" at Walmart anymore.Walmart will decide FOR YOU what you need.
Ya Walmart is great all right.

[Popeye]

k-mart had much , much better junk

[Norman Bernstein]

Walmart demands to be the ONLY game in town,they want no competition at all.Thats NOT free enterprise.Walmarts aim is to strangle hold and kill competition,they want none.


I'm afraid, geeman, that you're simply stating the obvious. NO company wants to compete; EVERY company wants to own their marketplace. The objective of business is the making of money, and there are no other objectives whatsoever... everything a company does has the ultimate objective of increasing margins, profits, and market share, and anything which looks even remotely like social responsibility is done for the sake of the REAL objectives.

I'm sorry if that sounds cynical, but I believe it to be the truth.... and it's a reason and justification for regulation in the marketplace. We saw the consequences of lax or non-existent regulation back in the Robber Baron era, and we as a nation took steps to stop it. The fundamentals of business are no different today.

The phrase 'open competition in a free marketplace' is what thay all SAY.... while they're trying to figure out how to eliminate the competition.

[TimH]

Walmart offers mostly non-living wages
It stifles competition
they sell only cheap junk
they contribute trmendously to our national trade deficit
oh yea..did I mention that they sell cheap junk?

[S.V. Airlie]

oh yea..did I mention that they sell cheap junk?

Okay but in this case, why do I find the same name brands in smaller stores?

[Popeye]

the checkout lines are way too long , they don't seem to have a speedy line for 8 items or less

[TimH]

They force everyone else to sell the same cheap junk to stay in business.

[brad9798]

Corrections folks ... WM does NOT just sell cheap junk ... check out the products/brands ... then compare to other stores.

WE have ruined our Polyanna view of mainstreet ... not WM.

10.51 is better than 5.15 ... at least in my new math.

Examples:

Why spend 15 bucks for 4 60w equivalent flourescent bulbs at Home Depot ... well, when I can get the same pack for 7.95 at WM?

20 million is 20 million for Katrina.

They are the largest seller of music in the world ... all age groups shop there.

They sell the same stuff as my other local stores for 10-40% less ...

Looks folks- I was a WM basher for years and years and YEARS ... then, I opened my mind to actually look at them versus any other store ... actually compare products and tactics.

Well, this should come as no surprise, but simply beat the competition because WM did it better, faster, cheaper.

Much like the Japanese did 25 years ago ...

Sure they sell some junk ... but so do the higher end stores ...

(of course I own stock, Dan! ;) )

I don't care if folks shop there or not ... but they should at least understand the facts prior to bashing ...

[TimH]

Employers who don't provide affordable coverage are abusing the system and their workers by passing the costs onto the taxpayers, other businesses and their workers. Wal-Mart, the largest private employer in the US is also the largest abuser of the system. High insurance premiums and deductibles keep more than two-thirds of Wal-Mart workers—that's nearly 700,000 workers—from participating in the Wal-Mart health plan. Traditional supermarket employees have about 80% coverage.

Fact: The Walton family is worth about $102 billion--less than 1% of that could provide affordable health care for associates.Wal-Mart has admitted to passing on their responsibility to the government. Executive Jay Allen said, “[Wal‑Mart employees] who chose not to participate in [Wal‑ Mart's health plan] usually get their health care benefits from...the state or federal government." Wal-Mart’s actions shifts $1 billion onto the shoulders of other employers and taxpayers.

[brad9798]

TimH- you clearly illustrate your ignorance to WM.

Your choice ... :)

[brad9798]

... and unions don't abuse their members?

WM on healthcare is not the greatest ... I agree there ... but it beats most of the alternatives.

So the union supermarket worker makes ten grand more a year ... a % goes to union ... there are work stoppages every couple of years around me ... and the healthcare is more expensive.

It nets out to about 10.51 an hour across the board!

[TimH]

http://www.1worldcommunication.org/Walmart.htm

[TimH]

TimH- you clearly illustrate your ignorance to WM.

Your choice ... :)

Actually it is you that is ignorant. or rather you think everyone else is and you can sway people with your cheap sales pitch.

[pcford]

... and unions don't abuse their members?

WM on healthcare is not the greatest ... I agree there ... but it beats most of the alternatives.

So the union supermarket worker makes ten grand more a year ... a % goes to union ... there are work stoppages every couple of years around me ... and the healthcare is more expensive.

It nets out to about 10.51 an hour across the board!

Any proof on that arithmetic? I didn't think so.

No mention has been made of Costco, a competitor of Walmart. It is a company that pays its employees well and gives proper benefits.

[S.V. Airlie]

Okay.. here is a scenerio...
it is a Sunday morning. Your day off. For the first time in a week, the sun is shining and the temp. is over sixty. Ya sit there and think about all of those jobs ya gotta do. But, you were not expecting the sun to shine or the temp. to be over sixty. You were not organized.. ya needed some stuff to do the work.
Umm you think to yourself. Where can I get stuff to do the job on a Sunday morning. Umm you think.. can't go to the locasl hardware store, it is closed... Umm what to do.. ah yes, WalMarts is open...

[TimH]

Democratic Presidential pre-candidate Lyndon LaRouche has launched a national and international boycott of Wal-Mart, to expose and shut down the company. LaRouche has shown that under Wal-Mart's policy of demanding that its suppliers supply goods to Wal-Mart at ridiculously low prices, the only way the suppliers can accomplish this is to shut down production in the United States, and ship it to sweatshop facilities overseas, which has caused the exodus of 1.5 million U.S. manufacturing jobs. Wal-Mart pays its workers below subsistence wages, and destroys communities. This is applied as a leading edge of a Roman Imperial-type policy, in which the American physical economy, no longer able to reproduce its own existence, sucks in a huge volume of imported goods from around the world. The more the United States feeds its import addiction, the more that destroys the U.S. physical economy, while driving the current account deficit to new and dangerous heights.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3103waltons.html



I shop at Costco. They are a good company.

[S.V. Airlie]

Damn, I should never have bought that nice shirt at LL Beans made in Viet Nam. Or was it Cambodia? I'll go check.

[Gary E]

Brad..

Your still in the Mortgage Biz???

Will you still be in that WHEN all you make doing it is peanuts?
WM has TONS of money, and their suppliers have even more...
They could and some day will drive the cost so low you wont make squat.
Still like the race to the bottom?

[TimH]

Is Walmart good for America?

Jon Lehman worked for Wal-Mart for 17 years, managing six stores in four different states before he left the company in 2001 to work for a union trying to organize Wal-Mart employees. In this interview, he recounts how he became disillusioned with the company's focus on profit, and why he feels that the current management has strayed from the principles of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton. Lehman also describes how Wal-Mart developed its efficient supply chain, how Wal-Mart's buyers negotiate with manufacturers to drive down costs, and when he first noticed Wal-Mart's importing low-cost goods from China. This transcript is drawn from two interviews with Lehman, conducted on June 4 and Oct. 7, 2004.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/interviews/lehman.html

[S.V. Airlie]

Tim.. I was just trying to make a point here. WalMart is not the only company doing this... cheap labor etc.
I mean pull out a catalogue from LL Bean... or any of them. Look at the stuff sold at the boat stores... I would say that 90% of what is there is made in 3rd world countries.

[TimH]

http://www.walmartworkersrights.org/

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/

Walmart is a 500lb Gorilla, stomping everything in its path.

[pcford]

Tim.. I was just trying to make a point here. WalMart is not the only company doing this... cheap labor etc.
I mean pull out a catalogue from LL Bean... or any of them. Look at the stuff sold at the boat stores... I would say that 90% of what is there is made in 3rd world countries.

Try Filson. Most of stuff is made in USA.

[S.V. Airlie]

Ah yes.. picford.. There are stores that sell products made in the USA. I like buying them... I try to buy them however...
I went to the UPS store last week. I was looking for boxes to hold and mail pictures to Joe in Cold Spring on Hudson. No biggie.. just a few boxes... made out of cardboard.
Well, the boxes were made in the US of A.. Great! The price per box was 16.85.. It cost less to ship them.

now I'm gonna need a lot of boxes. I mean a lot.. I ain't gonna pay 16.95/box just because they were made in the USA. I'm nuts but I ain't stupid.

[TimH]

If there's a Wal-Mart in your area, chances are your taxes are paying:




http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/images/chart.gif



By keeping its workers in poverty, Wal-Mart also impoverishes entire communities: When many residents have less to spend on goods and services, they can't support community merchants—and everyone's income and spending eventually drops.


Big-box retailers and supercenters such as Wal-Mart transform family-supporting, middle-class retail jobs into lower-paying jobs that often leave workers unable to pay bills (http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/upload/chicago_bigbox_ordinance.pdf).

[Bob Adams]

Brad..

Your still in the Mortgage Biz???

Will you still be in that WHEN all you make doing it is peanuts?
WM has TONS of money, and their suppliers have even more...
They could and some day will drive the cost so low you wont make squat.
Still like the race to the bottom?

A correction about the suppliers. They are my company's major customer. They dictate what they will pay. They dictate what my company will pay it's workers.They will determine when I finally lose my decent job to an illegal immigrant. Because of Wal Mart, I have watched my company go from a class act, to just another bottom feeder. Screw Wal Mart.

[TimH]

BEFORE YOU SHOP AT WAL-MART
Know the Facts

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/upload/shopfacts.pdf

[S.V. Airlie]

Tim.. not gonna disagree but I have a question? Isn't any money coming in better than no money? I mean, there is no work here. Nada. The Purdue farms have disappeared.. people are on the dole so to speak. There is nothing for them not even at min. wage...
So, they take a job at WalMarts. Isn't that better than collecting money because they can't find work?

psss. this is not a post in favor of WalMart. I'm trying to be realisitic.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Wallmart is my store of last resort, but with so much retail in Rockford, I can't remember when I went there last.

Moby Nick

[S.V. Airlie]

Nicholaus.. It is my store of last resort too but at least I have a last resort.
Just so you all know, I may go to Walmart 5 times a year.

[Gary E]

A correction about the suppliers. They are my company's major customer. They dictate what they will pay. They dictate what my company will pay it's workers.They will determine when I finally lose my decent job to an illegal immigrant. Because of Wal Mart, I have watched my company go from a class act, to just another bottom feeder. Screw Wal Mart.


Bob
I agree with you but I mean the ultimate supplier in China.. as the Chinee Commies accumulate US $$$ by the truck load they come back to the US as LOANS to loan us our own money... Some day, the loan will be called in... and by that time we the peons wont have squat to pay them, and then the Commies will take over without the US firing a so much as a squirtgun.

[pipefitter]

I tried using super Wm for my grocery needs being it was the only grocery store on my route home from work.I could never find beef that looked right or the right sized packages . The sea food was imported and didn't look or smell right. I am used to fresh but their prices made me consider it as an alternative.

Levis. . . 19.95 but not the type I buy. I didn't want relaxed fit or stone washed. There seems to be a difference in the Levis that WM sells and that of what Sears does and the sizes are always mixed up so it takes me a long(my time is money) time to pilfer through the rack. T-shirts. . . Nearly every shirt has a picture on it that a kid would buy and it just rings of a thrift store or garage sale. Sears may charge more but I don't shop for a hobby so I tend to buy things that aren't so disposeable or compulsive.

Fishing tackle: I find better deals online and I think the sporting goods manager must be from somewhere else and not be familiar with the fishing here in FL. In that respect, I find the internet to have the catalog of a WM with the ability to still buy from some small timers who probably spend their profits at WM.

The mentality: People that frequent this chain seem to affix the deals they get as expectations across the board,including the service they expect to get everywhere else. I have the hardest time accepting the word "custom" in with the same sentence with "production". Or, "I want it now,I want it perfect and I want it cheap" which means they want me to be a WM worker in my trade. You would think that with all the money they saved at WM,they could afford the real thing when it comes to choosing a "custom" shop and artisans to do the work. What they really want is the item that looks like the real thing from a distance but at a great discount because that's what their house is full of and what they are comfortable with.

Life was so much easier when I was working for old money. The guy that believed you got what you paid for and that there wasn't any such thing as a bargain. Did I make a killing off of them? No,it just enabled me to take my time and do a perfect job without leaving any telltale signs of shortcuts that it took to make my wage. Without exposure to seeing people that actually do sweat for their living,compared to something that comes from a blister pack on a rack,some are losing the vision of a whole human process there as if everything must be built by robots now and if it isn't,then why not and why should they pay when they can get a facsimile of from a WM?

Wealthy or not,most people that shop at WM regularly, are noteably cheap in just about everything else they do.He's the guy that will say I tipped a waitress/waiter too much even though I took into consideration what the price of gas is now and what it must mean to someone who is working for much less than I. The spending faction is overridden with $30k plastic millionaires.

The last straw was the shopping bag carousel where I start getting dirty looks and sighs from Bertha behind me for thinking some of my stuff is still trapped in the mess as it whirled past me faster than I could retrieve it.

[brad9798]

When I fail to make a bunch of money in the mortgage biz, it will be time to move on ... like WM, I keep close tabs on the market and competition ... thus, I can see the trend coming before it happens.

Then I will simply jump to something else!!

127,000,000 per week shop there ... we/folks that dislike WM are in the minority.

I think they are wonderful at some things ... bad at others ... just like every one of us! :razz:

When the wife and I were double income no kids (dinks), I would never have stepped foot in WM.

However, 14 years and three kids later, we have challenged ourselves to shop there for groceries ... the money we save every week will afford a 'free' Sanibel Island vacation next winter.

Ain't nuffin wrong with that! But then again, I am more financially disciplined tha most people! ;)

[Norman Bernstein]

Tim.. not gonna disagree but I have a question? Isn't any money coming in better than no money? I mean, there is no work here. Nada. The Purdue farms have disappeared.. people are on the dole so to speak. There is nothing for them not even at min. wage...
So, they take a job at WalMarts. Isn't that better than collecting money because they can't find work?

You're right, Jamie... some money is better than no money.

The problem is that George Bush will then point to low unemployment figures and trumpet the success of his economic programs... meanwhile, guys who were earning $60K, whose jobs were exported, are now earning $20K at Walmart... and the employment figures don't change.

We need a qualitative measure of employment, more than a quantitative one.

[S.V. Airlie]

Norman.. It has not only been G Bush..
In the 90's I worked a lot of jobs because I could not find a job in my field. I worked at convenience stores, mom and pop stores. I never requested aid.. as in unemplyoment. I was off the radar.. an unknown because I was not in the system. To say that Bush uses the figures to his advantage is wrong.. So has every other president we have ever had.

[TimH]

When I was a child I spent my winters living in the old run down neighborhoods in Chicago. In the summer I was at my great grandfathers house in a small town in Michigan. I loved that town more than anything. It got me out of the slum and into what I thought life should really be like. Everyone knew everybody else, the people were all friendly and crime was practically non-existant.
Now this town had a population of about 4000. It had a couple of local hardware stores, a few gas stations, and some nice small shops owned by local people where my mother would drag me so she could do her shopping.
There was no McDonalds, no Walmart, one of those chain stores that have since de-faced small town America. Coming from a big city, this seemed like heaven on earth.
In the 90's it all changed. Now it has one of each fast food chains, and chain retail and video stores. It has almost completely lost its character.

To me that is disgusting. Maybe I am just an oddball who treasures uniqueness and character. The small towns and small town people that are scattered all across this once great nation are its greatest treasure.
To me that is America. I guess it was all just a dream. I feel lucky to have lived it, even if it was just the tail end.
The onslaught of the modern big box retail and fast food phenomena exemplified by Wal Mart is rapidly changing the way people shop and live, and is threatening the long-term viability of the American lifestyle. Its killing the character of America as we know it.

[Gonzalo]

Corrections folks ... WM does NOT just sell cheap junk ... check out the products/brands ... then compare to other stores.Charles Fishman wrote a book called The Wal-Mart Effect: How the World's Most Powerful Company Really Works--and How It's Transforming the American Economy. This book does not bash Wal-Mart, but gives a "good news/bad news" balanced account. I heard a couple of extensive interviews with Fishman last year and he definately appreciates the company for the things it does well. However, he also says that by insisting on low price above all else from its suppliers, Wal-Mart drives down the quality of goods sold everywhere else. Suppliers who sell to Wal-Mart cheapen their goods to meet Wal-Marts price demands and those that don't sell to Wal-Mart cheapen their goods to compete.

According to Fishman, some of Wal-Mart's suppliers (Levis, for example) market lower-quality goods just for Wal-Mart and sell better goods at other stores, so if you see the same brand at Wal-Mart, it doesn't mean it is the same product.

Me? I stopped shopping at Wal-Mart as a rule when I heard about them making workers clock out before their shift ended and stay to finish "off the clock" because managers' cost targets were so strict. (In at least one case in Oregon they locked the doors to keep clocked out workers from leaving. I guess not all stores stay open 24 hours, maybe.) But last summer I needed a watch in a hurry, and was in a small town where Wal-Mart was the only game in town. I am still wearing the cheap but mostly satisfactory watch I bought there.

Reviews on this page summarize what points Fishman was making: http://www.amazon.com/Wal-Mart-Effect-Powerful-Works-Transforming/dp/0143038788/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3680980-8597426?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175621712&sr=1-1

[peb]

10.51 is better than 5.15 ... at least in my new math.


So what, it is better than $1/hour also. But it is not good. $10/hour for a full time, adult employee is not adequate pay.

If a business cannot afford to pay its workers a just wage, it is a business you do not want in your neighborhood. By definition, it will breed poverty.

I might add, now this was 10 years ago and I have no idea if this is still their policy, but at one time, a starting full time wage at the local Home Depot store was $13.00/hour with full health and retirement benefits. 10 years at 3% inflation is about the equivilant to $18/hour today. Again, I doubt if it is now hight, but at one time it was.

[Sam F]

So what, it is better than $1/hour also. But it is not good. $10/hour for a full time, adult employee is not adequate pay...

Hey! $10/hour is good money!!
Oh wait... it's not 1973 anymore.
Nevermind! :D

[TimH]

I was making 10$ an hour in retail at the marine store in 1990...*and* had benefits.

[TimH]

The Costco Challenge: An Alternative to Wal-Martization? (July 5, 2005)


Critics believe that Wal-Mart should play the role General Motors played after World War II… [and] establish the post-world-war middle class that the country is so proud of. The facts are that retailing doesn’t perform that role in the economy. Retailing doesn’t perform that role in any country.
—Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott, April 2005
To workers and union leaders, it is a familiar refrain. These days, the story goes, consumers demand low prices, meaning goods must be produced and sold cheaply — and retail wages must be kept as low as possible. Companies like Wal-Mart insist they’re feeling the squeeze and must pay workers poverty wages — even while netting $10.5 billion in annual profits and awarding millions to top executives.
But there’s another company that is breaking the Wal-Mart mold: Costco Wholesale Corp., now the fifth-largest retailer in the U.S. While Wal-Mart pays an average of $9.68 an hour, the average hourly wage of employees of the Issaquah, Wash.-based warehouse club operator is $16. After three years a typical full-time Costco worker makes about $42,000, and the company foots 92% of its workers’ health insurance tab.
How does Costco pull it off? How can a discount retail chain pay middle-class wages and still bring in over $880 million in net revenues? And, a cynic may ask, with Wal-Mart wages becoming the norm, why does it bother?
A number of factors explain Costco’s success at building a retail chain both profitable and fair to its workers. But the basic formula is one the labor movement has been advocating for decades: a loyal, well-compensated workforce means a more efficient and productive one.
The Payoff of Better Pay
Strong union representation isn’t the only reason Costco jobs are so well compensated; the company itself has an unusually forward-looking corporate philosophy.
Costco CEO Jim Senegal has said: “We pay much better than Wal-Mart. That’s not altruism. It’s good business.”
Chief Financial Officer Richard Galanti explained: “From day one, we’ve run the company with the philosophy that if we pay better than average, provide a salary people can live on, have a positive environment and good benefits, we’ll be able to hire better people, they’ll stay longer and be more efficient.”
A 2004 Business Week study (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm) ran the numbers to test Costco’s business model against that of Wal-Mart. The study confirmed that Costco’s well-compensated employees are more productive.
The study shows that Costco’s employees sell more: $795 of sales per square foot, versus only $516 at Sam’s Club, a division of Wal-Mart (which, like Costco, operates as a members-only warehouse club). Consequently Costco pulls in more revenue per employee; U.S. operating profit per hourly employee was $13,647 at Costco versus $11,039 at Sam’s Club.
The study also revealed that Costco’s labor costs are actually lower than Wal-Mart’s as a percentage of sales. Its labor and overhead costs (classed as SG&A, or selling, general and administrative expenses) are 9.8% of revenues, compared to Wal-Mart’s 17%.
By compensating its workers well, Costco also enjoys rates of turnover far below industry norms. Costco’s rate of turnover is one-third the industry average of 65% as estimated by the National Retail Foundation. Wal-Mart reports a turnover rate of about 50%.
With such rates of employee retention, Costco’s savings are significant. “It costs $2,500 to $3,000 per worker to recruit, interview, test and train a new hire, even in retail,” said Eileen Appelbaum, Professor at Rutgers University’s School of Management and Labor Relations. “With Wal-Mart’s turnover rate that comes to an extra $1.5 to $2 million in costs each year.”
Other analysts of the retail industry agree that happier, well-compensated workers help generate bigger profits. George Whalin, president of Retail Management Consultants in San Marcos, Calif., disagrees with many of Wal-Mart’s critics, but said: “There’s no doubt Wal-Mart and many other retailers could do a better job taking care of their employees. The best retailers do take care of their employees — Nordstrom’s, Costco, The Container store — with fair pay, good benefits and managers who care about people. You have fewer employee issues, less turnover and more productivity. It lessens costs to the company.”
Still, Wall Street analysts intent on cutting up-front labor costs tend to frown upon Costco’s model. “Costco’s corporate philosophy is to put its customers first, then its employees, then its vendors and finally its shareholders. Shareholders get the short end of stick,” said Deutsche Bank analyst Bill Dreher.
But Costco’s stock has quadrupled in the past ten years, and has in the past year inched closer to Wal-Mart’s per-share-price. In fiscal year 2004, Costco recorded record sales and earnings. While Wal-Mart continues to profit and expand, its stock has lost value — in recent months it is 16% off its 52-week high — as sales have been more sluggish as gas prices cause customers to cut back on driving to and from the store. The negative publicity around the company has also caused some damage.
Of course, other factors besides low turnover and employee productivity are responsible for Costco’s efficiency. The company has a wealthier customer base than Wal-Mart’s; these customers buy higher-margin goods, purchase in bulk and have steadier spending habits. Costco also saves millions because it does not advertise.
More Than Hot Air
Besides the efficiency of its workforce, another reason Costco can afford to pay more is that it cuts the fat from executive paychecks. The overall corporate philosophy is that workers deserve a fair share of the profits they help generate — not just a pat on the back or a new job title like “associate.”
For example, while CEOs at other major corporations average 531 times the pay of their lowest-paid employees, Sinegal takes only 10 times the pay of his typical employee. His annual salary is $350,000, compared to about $5.3 million awarded to Wal-Mart’s Lee Scott.
After California Costco workers ratified their Teamster contract last March, CEO Jim Sinegal said Costco workers are “entitled to buy homes and live in reasonably nice neighborhoods and send their children to school.”
That the company’s stated ideals match up with workers’ paychecks helps explain employee loyalty at Costco.
Originally from El Salvador, 28-year-old Cesar Martinez has worked at a Redwood City, Calif. Costco for 10 years, serving as a Teamster shop steward for seven years. His pay is now up to $19.42 an hour, which he estimates brings him $43,000 per year.
“There’s a feeling here that the company takes care of its employees and wants to share the profits. We feel compensated fairly,” Martinez said.
“I’ve stuck with it so long because I like the job. And the salary is solid and we have a pension that gives me security into the future. That’s important to me,” he added.
By contrast, some Wal-Mart employees experience the supposed care for “associates” as empty rhetoric. Forty-two-year-old Rosetta Brown, a Sam’s Club employee in Chicago, Ill., for example, stands back each morning when managers and associates gather for the Sam’s Club cheer.
“I refuse to do it,” she said. “I don’t believe the company lives up to what they’re cheering for,” she said.
Rosetta, mother to five children ranging in age from three to 25, does not feel well compensated at $11.34 per hour after five years. She is also suing Wal-Mart, parent company to Sam’s Club, for costs associated with a herniated disc she suffered when she said she was locked in while working the night shift.
Twenty-seven-year-old Jason Mrkwa, who works as a frozen foods stocker in Independence, Kansas, also stands back when it’s cheer time at his store. But he insists he doesn’t hate Wal-Mart: “I’m not another disgruntled employee. I like my job. I just feel cheated with the pay I get.” He started at $7 per hour five years ago, and now makes just $8.53 per hour.
Julie Molina, 38, has worked at Costco’s South San Francisco store for 19 years. “People stick around — most people in my store have been there ten years more. No one in retail makes as much as we do. Plus it’s a good working environment.”
Molina attributes the positive working environment in large part to the Teamsters’ presence. “It works really well now. When problems arise management comes to the union for advice. But without the union I’m not sure what would take place. Would they treat us like Wal-Mart treats its workers? You hear horror stories,” she said.
Of course Costco is not paradise — “On a local level, some managers don’t play fair — they might harass workers, fire them unreasonably or pattern bonuses unfairly. That’s where union representation is the real advantage,” explained Rome Aloise.
Into the future, the question will be which model of employee compensation predominates in retail — the high road of Costco or the low road of Wal-Mart.
“When companies like Wal-Mart are setting the standard, we have to ask: Do we want to live in a country where the largest employer pays below poverty-level wages, whose workers cannot afford health care?” says Paul Blank, chief spokesperson of Wake Up Wal-Mart (http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/), the United Food and Commercial Workers’ new campaign to change the company’s practices. “Or do we want Americans to enjoy a decent income and a sense of security in return for their work?”

http://www.laborresearch.org/print.php?id=391

[peb]

Hey! $10/hour is good money!!
Oh wait... it's not 1973 anymore.
Nevermind! :D

I remember in high school (late 70s) a ccd teacher telling us how it took $1000/month to support a family. Now, this was a rural setting, but it shows how inflation has affected us. Of course, lately we have liberals here wishing for the days of high inflation.

Edited to add: he told us this in the context of explaining a minimum wage farmers should pay a farm hand. Some of us were taught things properly at one time.

[Phillip Allen]

"Are you guys trying to suggest that if not for WM, folks making 20k would be making 40k working for mom and pop shops...REALLY?

[brad9798]

Bashing WM is not addressing the issue ... 127,000,000 shoppers per week ... Again, half of the folks that say they do not shop there are dishonest!!!

Again, it is easy to fix the WM problem ... let's all agree to pay 10-40% for EVERYTHING.

If you are not willing to do that, then you are PART of the problem that ruined mainstreet USA. You are NOT part of any solution.

:D

[mmd]

I don't like the "mall-ification" of my little town, but the presence of the behemoth stores is almost inevitable. People are like sheep, and run where the crowd goes. And the crowd goes to WalMart.

Personally, I don't boycott such places, but I always check my local merchants first and don't even mind spending a few percent more for items if it means that I keep my fellow citizens employed in family-run stores. I like the personal service, the willingness to research sources for the things I need that they don't have in stock, and the cameraderie of walking downtown to waves and hellos coming from the shopkeepers on main street. When they can't deliver what I need when I need it or at a price I can live with, then I'll take a trip to the edge of town and visit WallyWorld.

Oh, yeah; I don't have any religious convictions to speak of, but I am against Sunday shopping, too. Sunday, Wednesday, Monday; I don't care which, but there should be a legislated regular day off for folks. But I guess I'm just anachronistic and provincial that way...

[pcford]

"Are you guys trying to suggest that if not for WM, folks making 20k would be making 40k working for mom and pop shops...REALLY?

No. How does that follow?

[peb]

"Are you guys trying to suggest that if not for WM, folks making 20k would be making 40k working for mom and pop shops...REALLY?

Perhaps the mom and pop would be making that much.

But that is not the point. The point is, that people should be paid a just wage. For low skill jobs, I am not saying a high wage. I am saying a just wage. $10/hour is a just wage for a high school or college student. It might barely be a just wage for a single person just entering the fulltime work force. But if it is their average wage, there has to be a problem.

[peb]

Oh, yeah; I don't have any religious convictions to speak of, but I am against Sunday shopping, too. Sunday, Wednesday, Monday; I don't care which, but there should be a legislated regular day off for folks. But I guess I'm just anachronistic and provincial that way...


This is so true. Unfortunately, the liberals insisted that blue laws were a violation of church and state. Blue laws are a social justice issue and the liberals failed us on it (at least here in Texas when they went away). The retailers opposed ending the blue laws.

I like to shop at Hobby Lobby because they don't open on Sunday. I try not to do very much shopping on Sunday.

[Sam F]

Perhaps the mom and pop would be making that much.

They might earn that much income, but as a mom and pop business they'd have other advantages. The business would have value and perhaps be sold to support retirement and they'd be highly resistant to lay offs. Ma ain't likely to fire Pa in an economic slowdown.
Economies dominated by mom and pop enterprises aren't likely to be as responsive to boom and bust cycles.

[TimH]

I just dont understand the idea that a highly successful corporation should pay billions in profits to a small handful of people at the top and everyone else should have to get by without a living wage or health care. Anyone who condones this practice should have their head examined.

[brad9798]

It's their choice, TimH.

Everyone keeps dancing around paying 10-40% more ...

QUESTION:

WOULD you pay 40% more for something on mainstreet USA? Not talking chewing gum ... talking, say, a plasma?

WOULD YOU?

If not ... well, just hush! :razz:
-------------------------------

Well said, mmd ... fortunately by me there are some GREAT mom and pops with VERY knowledgeable staff. I'll 5 bucks over four bucks to help them out.

Unfortunately, I will not $1,798 for a TV I can buy at WM for $1,398.

It is a different dynamic at work.

We all know it ... most ALL of us do/have shopped there ... but most of like to act we are above WM.

Afterall, WM started off as a hillbilly/redneck/hick town store right? :rolleyes:

[Bob Cleek]

I know I do live in the land of fruits and nuts, but, believe it or not, a local town here in Sonoma County (CA wine country) just OUTLAWED formula franchise food service businesses. Yep, McDonald's: outlawed. Seven-Eleven: outlawed. Burger King: outlawed. Subway Sandwich: outlawed. Every one of them. The refuse to issue business permits for any business that has something like twenty or more outlets, uses standardized design, uniforms, signage and so on, and ANY restaurant with a drive through window. The result? MORE people driving the extra mile to eat in "mom and pop" diners!

Sure, we have been inundated with all the big box chains. Two Costcos within a mile of each other (one used to be a Price Club that Costco bought out and just changed the sign on.) WalMart, which I've never gone into. Home Depot and a Lowe's practically right next to each other (go figure?) Everybody just about had enough of it once the novelty of the "bargains" wore off. About the only one that is worth a hoot, for limited things, is Costco. Home Despot and Lowe's suffice for a quick trip to the hardware store, but by and large, their products are crap. This works only if you really don't care about the quality of, say, a light switch. With the exception of Orchard Supply, which is just a Sears without the vacuum cleaners and clothing, there is only one old fashioned hardware store in Petaluma that I know of. It's been there for going on 100 years, but burned down last year. It is being rebuilt exactly as it was, though up to current codes. The entire community is supporting the family that owns it. Let's hope they shop there more often when they are back up and running.

Those of us that work on boats and so on really have to consider what life would be like at this point without the internet. Mail order on line is about the only place you can find quality tools and parts anymore, usually from some small outfit with a clientiele of dilletants like us. Where WOULD you get red lead if it wern't for Kirby's?

The moral of the story is don't buy crap if you can avoid it. Most of the country has become accustomed to lowering their standards. When you figure the WalMart - big box crap they buy that they don't need, and the crap that breaks in a week, and so on, they are spending MORE than they would if they bought decent goods in the first place. If only I could convince SWMBO that "Plain Folk" like the Amish and Mennonites are on to a good thing...

[brad9798]

Sorry, Bob ... Lowes/HD products are not crap ... you are smart enough to know better ... perhaps employee knowledge is crap ... but DeWalt is DeWalt. Stop being so obtuse.

Crap is available at any price point- are you know aware of that?

Mail order? Are U kidding me? SOme great things ... but not all.

I do agree that those who buy cheap spend more in the long run! VERY TRUE!!!

[brad9798]

I will ask again for the umpteenth time ... which one of you BASHERS wants to spend 10-40% more for what you want?

Which of you also wants to admit you shop in WM?

Keep dancing around ... TimH, et al!

You guys are seriously entertaining.

[TimH]

I regularly pay that! I dont buy from Walmart. I shop on my Island...and yes, its expensive, easily 10% to 40%. I pay even more for the exact same thing, in addition to paying more for quality in tools and other durable goods.

I am not dancing around your question, I just though it was a dumb question. Perhaps we arent all as cheap as some. I even drive American cars believe it or not, and I dont read consumer reports.

It seems that you got more than you bargained for in your "rant"?

[Bob Adams]

I will ask again for the umpteenth time ... which one of you BASHERS wants to spend 10-40% more for what you want?

Which of you also wants to admit you shop in WM?

Keep dancing around ... TimH, et al!

You guys are seriously entertaining.


Me. I never have, and never will step foot into a Wal Mart. Sam Walton is surely twirling in his grave, seeing what his company has become.

[peb]

I will ask again for the umpteenth time ... which one of you BASHERS wants to spend 10-40% more for what you want?

Which of you also wants to admit you shop in WM?

Keep dancing around ... TimH, et al!

You guys are seriously entertaining.

I will admit I will shop at walmart. Ocassionally for groceries, sometimes for shotgun shells.

I am slowly breaking my wife from the addiction of wm. As to paying 10-40% more, I just don't get your argument.

I can name a lot of industries where costs could come way down if the employees were not paid fairly. Lets start with public education. If we pay the teachers an average of $10/hour, I bet my property taxes can drop significantly. Why not? You want to continue to paya 10-40% hgher taxes just so teachers can make more than $10/hour.

I quit shopping at circuit city earlier this week after they announced plans to reduce pay for retail employees. I won't be perfect, getting almost impossible to be perfect on these issues.

[brad9798]

I too drive American cars at this point in my life ... and moving forward.

I actually got much less than I bargained for ... at least you are honest in your answer.

I understand, peb!!

And Bob Adams ... I admire your conviction!!! And Sam probably is rolling over ... :(

[Bob Cleek]

Actually, "DeWalt IS NOT DeWalt." Not to start a big fight here, but... Also, I can't speak for DeWalt products particularly, but I can for other items. Home Despot/Lowe's (and I expect it won't be all that long before the "battle of the boxes" leaves one standing, having bought the other out, as with Costco/Price Club) purchase so much from the manufacturers that they can not only dictate the price, but also specify the quality.

For instance... I need to replace some bathroom fawcets recently. (No, actually that's not true. There was no reason whatsoever to replace the fawcets. The old ones worked fine... Let's put it squarely: SWMBO wanted new fawcets in the bathroom.) I went down to Home Despot to see what was there and she picked out a set of Delta sink fawcets, etc. I urged her to go with the Delta product because "Delta is a quality brand." As often happens, she wanted the fawcets installed immediately and I had "honey doos" lined up until Christmas, so I said, call our buddy the plumber and have him stick them in. (Great plumber and reasonable prices, but still a plumber and another bill.) After the job was done, he tells me, "Don't ever buy this stuff from Home Depot anymore. Let me know the model number of what you want and I'll get it wholesale for you. " They he shows me the Delta fawcet from Home Depot and an identical Delta fawcet he had in his truck. As he explained and was obvious, the Home Depot Delta fawcet had the same OUTSIDES as any other Delta fawcet, but all the INSIDES (Valves) were cheapo plastic and nylon crap, while the professional market item's insides were all brass and rubber. Same boxes, same product numbers. And this came from a guy in the business.

If you look closely and compare, the way that the big box places cut corners is pretty sophisticated. Maybe an appliance is "identical" to the one in Macy's for three seventy-five more, but it's got a two foot cord instead of a six foot cord. Stuff like that. Buyer beware!

[pipefitter]

I used to go to WM because they had their brand of plastic fishing worms that were great. I used to get fishing stuff there before it got to be the only place in town. I don't think others shouldn't shop there if they like it but it's just not what I call a great place to shop. I don't like their fresh foods or produce. Produce all says from Chile on it and it may seem fine and firm on the outside,pretty to look at yet will be overripe within. I go to a veggie stand that has real GA. peaches etc. It ended up costing me 7.00 extra/week but I was throwing much less away. I go into WM and all the bags of grapes have been grazed on. In the private store,the owner is always on the floor helping everyone and will give a sample and he knows what he has. Tells what's great or not so great this or that time around.Once you get used to that kind of service,it's hard to shop at WM.

[brad9798]

Bob Cleek ... you are correct ... but that is why an educated consumer is the best consumer ...

ALWAYS look for brass/ceramic ... with lifetime warranty on faucets ... the faucet I just bought for HD was about 175 ... looked identical to the one below it ... below it was 129 ... the cheaper on was plastic and nylon valves and fittings ...

The one I bought was brass and ceramic.

Looks can, and do, often deceive!

Brad

[TimH]

Looks can, and do, often deceive!

Brad


Like the illusion that Walmart is saving anybody anything in the long run. ;)

[ishmael]

One food item I buy there occasionally is king crab. Not because it's cheaper there, it's not, but it sure is nice compared to the legs at my regular grocers. Big, and well frozen, unlike the small ones that have been sitting on ice in the fish case at the grocery. I can't afford it very often, but a couple times a year it's a treat.

That place is always busy. You could live in there and never have to leave! LOL. Fast food, slow food, optometrist, hair cutter, a bathroom. No booze, which would be a problem for some.

It is an interesting phenomenon. For better or worse it's become the new town square. It would be a great place to do some people photography, but I think that's against company policy--except for the company of course. Unlike the square of yore I never get the sense that people are very friendly or open with each other, but that's fairly common everywhere these days.

As I said above, I don't like going there. Strange buzz. When I go I try to get what I'm after and get out before I get sucked into the vortex. But, a lot of people love it, and it's still a free country.

[TimH]

Costco has excellent meat (both seafood and other).
I once bought a 19" monitor at Costco and used it for over a year. It failed, so I called them to ask about any warranty it may or may not have(I had long since threw out the paperwork). They said bring it in. I did and since they no longer carried that particular monitor, they gave me a full refund with no receipt and no questions asked.
Costco is a great store.

[High C]

Walmart beef? I don't think that stuff comes from cows. :eek:

The beef at Sam's Club, on the other hand, is very good. Go figure.

[Paul G.]

is it really true your minimum wage is $5.15 an hour ? wow, what does a ceo get? $5.15 a second.

Keep em stupid (creationism), well fed (mcdonalds), frightened (saddam). plenty of trinkets (walmart) and shhh maybe they wont rebel.

[brad9798]

I am neither endorsing nor bashing WM, TimH ... I am simply pointing out the obvious ... Most don't like to admit, but most shop there.

Why are most folks afraid to admit who they are ... for fear of ruining their plastic image????

[Dave Davis]

Ok, more than willing to admit, never bought anything from Walmart and never will. There is more to life than cheap, and Walmart is too sad for words. One of my colleagues at work said it best, integrity is the conjunction of your values and your actions and shopping at Walmart would violate my sense of fairness to others and "quality" (in a "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" sense of the word.)

Won't denigrate others for doing so, won't do it myself.

[TimH]

NEW YORK -- Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, has reclaimed its position as the largest corporation in the U.S. among the Fortune 500, pushing Exxon Mobil down to number two.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/1310AP_Fortune_500.html?source=mypi


They should cut benefits some more now, so they can get into some other industries.

[Paul Girouard]

NEW YORK -- Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, has reclaimed its position as the largest corporation in the U.S. among the Fortune 500, pushing Exxon Mobil down to number two.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/1310AP_Fortune_500.html?source=mypi


They should cut benefits some more now, so they can get into some other industries.


Didn't I see you in the Oak Harbor store last week:eek: :D

[TimH]

um...no

[Paul Girouard]

um...no


you sure ?? It looked like you:D Hehehhe

[TimH]

Ok, I confess....

it wasnt me. :-)

I have been in there a couple of times, but because I was dragged in kicking and screaming. And not in a long time.