Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?

[Bill Lowe]

Susanne I don't think I like you or your ideas.

[erster]

Originally Posted by Bill Lowe

Susanne I don't think I like you or your ideas.

You just haven't been around the water and boats long enough. Mark thanks for your imput and perspective!

[Susanne@PB&F]

Give each other a hug. A big one.

A note on personal style - to each their own: with those giddy 'faces' proliferating on the lapels of a certain folks, things begin to look like those tunics of various operetta-generalissimos...

[Susanne@PB&F]

I would propose for those vocal recent/new arrivals who joined in the Group-Hug' around our most flamboyant friends to read through both Threads and then consider the sources of toxicity to a reasonable discussion. Key words would be that "wood is bad for commercial applications - and particularly in winter" (apparently) etc. The record submitted by certain folks is quite stunning in its intensity and insistence.

The frat-row raucus was great fun for some, but did not add any substance to the general point of this Thread. All 'character-defining word-choices' aimed at my address typically come from guys who lost focus early, in public, often, and still repeating. The initial proposition of this Thread is logical enough; and a few sober folks seem to understand it as such. There will be more such folks - while others lay awake at night rolling more spit-balls...

[john welsford]

About “village” fisheries. Comparisons between them and fisheries such as the Chesapeake or Falmouth ( UK) where the old sailing craft are, or have until recently been fishing are not really valid, these latter fisheries were governed by regulation to manage the catch and preserve a very localized and limited fishery in a very highly populated area, so that’s a very artificial and expensive situation. There are other ways to do that.
Second point, the type of vessel. There has been a suggestion that a simple flat bottomed skiff would suit so there is no need for any design or development work. Not so for several reasons. One is that while the “ flatiron” is common and familiar to those on the East Coast of the USA, its not a type known to the people of the areas that I’m talking about. If the boats are too different they do not gain the acceptance of the users and are used with reluctance if at all.
The boats have to be consistent with their perceptions of what a “good boat” will be, and that generally means that they are quite different to our ideas. Research is needed, and at the time that I was asked to do the job, I was fortunately able to contact through our Defence Department a very keen small boat owner who was stationed in East Timor. Major Pohio was interested enough to go and interview a number of people for me and from that she was able to make some suggestions as to the fishery, the conditions where they would be used and the style of boat.
She was also able to advise as to the skill base of the likely builders, the availability of materials and the economic situation, all of which has an impact on the design .
The availability of materials was a surprise by the way, it seemed that during the Indonesian occupation the forests had been very heavily logged for export of plywood and sawn lumber. The traditional dugout was not feasible due to the lack of logs so alternatives had to be considered.
In addition to that, she advised that the UNFAO had supplied several “fishing boats” that had been a real herd of marine white elephants. Although built locally ply over sawn frames, they were 24ft deep vee planing power boats with 2 x 90 hp motors. The cost, even heavily subsidized, was around US$30,000,00 . The cost of operation was as you can imagine very high, and this in an area where the average wage was around US$14 a day and that in an area with about 60% unemployment.
The style of fishery was also to be considered. A boat suited to tonging for oysters will be different to a boat suited to stop netting, or hauling pots, or longlining and so on.
In this case long lining, cast netting and tending fish traps were the common fishing methods but some trolling was envisaged as there was a seasonal fishery in that respect.
The environment is an issue, in this case the boats were mostly being used in quite open waters, and launched off surf beaches.
Having found all that out, it was evident that a solution that would be quite unconventional by our standards was needed.
I was advised by the principal of the NGO aid agency I was working with that there were “hundreds” of 15 hp Yamaha outboards in containers, and where a boat was available a motor would be provided. These being particularly suited as they were within the “free licence” size, very reliable, easy to service and cheap to run.
The people in this area are used to long slim boats, generally with outriggers ( check out the Indonesian “Banka” style boats) and paddle rather than row.
I had been asked for a short term solution, a very large number of boats were needed and finance was very short. My solution was a “fat canoe” of very simple shape, really a much elongated and high sided plywood power dory with a few unique features. The motor is in a well, the boat has about 800 kg of air tank buoyancy, the frame heads are reinforced and stick up beyond the gunwale so with some heavy bamboo poles a pair of boats can be lashed together to make a big boat for a special purpose ( one pair was seen carrying a Toyota pickup between islands) and the construction kept as simple as possible.
The materials are mostly readily available ( from Australian Plantation grown logs) waterproof bonded utility plywood over lumberyard lumber, the joints engineered for cheap polyurethane adhesives and galvanized fastenings, the paint intended to be cheap plastic paint. Built like that they were about 10% of the cost of the UNFAO design and a fraction of the cost to run.
The NGO sent a boatbuilder up there to establish a boatbuilding school, and a number of supporters, me included toured junkshops collecting tools which were fettled and sharpened and sent up with oilstones and files so the recipients could be taught to maintain them . Each “class” came in, built a couple of boats and graduated with a full set of patterns, (many were illiterate) a set of hand tools sufficient to build these boats, and enough materials for two boats. They went back to their villages, built and sold those boats and bought more materials to carry on. The school, with four builders and one instructor was turning out two boats a week!
In some cases they taught more to build the boats, and one can imagine the type carrying on well beyond its intended short term role.
Some of the thank you letters I received were very humbling, it was one of the most rewarding projects that I’ve been involved in. Since then several small aid agencies have built that same boat and another designed for a similar situation.
The point of this rambling diatribe is that there are many factors in designing a successful boat for these fisheries or communities, and many of those factors are not immediately apparent to the casual viewer. If all of those factors are not considered, then the project wont work. Huge amounts of aid money is wasted every year in this very way.
I believe that there is a place for wooden working boats, ranging from very simple and modest craft such as described above, to quite sophisticated ones. Not only fishing, but many of the 3rd world island, riverine and coastal people would benefit from being able to build and run their own freight and passenger craft, and in doing so retain control and ownership keeping profits and employment local.

I would enjoy discussing the many possibilities and permutations involved.

John Welsford

[Nauvoo]

Amen.

Thank you, John.

For a moment I thought sanity had fled the northeast.

[oznabrag]

Northeastern New Zealand?

[erster]

John each region of the country has always dealt with some form of governing body that oversees and manages the fisheries even offshore fisheries. In just about every region the fishermen are sole propriertors or a LLC but operate using some form of P&L statement with little to no funding besides what is known as a small business loan when building a new hull especially. But most do build using local materials unless the hulls are moulded fiberglass or some form of metal, steel or aluminum.


Yet the offshore fisheries on a world wide scale are not managed leaving the fishermen in the U.S. at an extreme disadvantage when poaching taking place or longlining with huge vessels are left unchecked. But if you have interest in swapping thoughts and ideas you must begin by finding out what it is that she is interested in discussing, like maybe listing a few items in order.


So far the best that a cross section of people participating here has gained out of this has been the original topic line and followed up with insults early on when the two threads took wings. I look foward from the sidelines of seeing if you truely gain something constructive from your time and effort as I suspect numerous others from a cross section of seasoned members. thanks.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Thanks you John Welsford and Nauvoo for injecting some much needed 'oxygen' into this Thread.

Good account by Welsford's on his laudible successful efforts helping out getting an apparently much needed wooden working craft project done, and spawning others. Gratifying indeed to hear about this. Much less prejudice seems to have stood in the way than you might have found elsewhere

Good to see Nauvoo's presence.

I'll wait with related input on policy and hardware issues until late tomorrow. A wooden working craft project demands my attention...

I hope I did not jinx Welsford's effort at keeping the 'Termites' at bay ?!

[outofthenorm]

That's a sickening response from a supposedly adult person. Self-congratulatory, judgmental, and condescending all at the same time. 'Termites" indeed. How childish.

- Norm

[Dave Gray]

Wow, I haven't seen a thread like this since Oyster and Joe went at it hammer and tongs.

I have to admit, after reading this thread and the one in the building section, I still don't understand what is being proposed except a new sub forum. The why of it escapes me. The explanation is an example of convoluted sentence construction. Perhaps the original poster can, in simple terms and without a lot of offhanded remarks, explain just what is being proposed and why?

[john welsford]

Back to the beginning.

Yes I would like to see a thread dedicated to wooden working boats. I'd like it to include historical examples including those older boats still working , current wooden boats, and possible future developments.
I would like the thread to have a world focus not just North America as there are many niche fisheries where wooden boats are appropriate as well as ferry and general freight useage.
Huge areas of the South and West Pacific, Eastern Indian ocean, and South East Asia have high populations living on the coast or on islands, are relatively undeveloped economically and are experiencing much change including deforestation which is affecting the materials supply for boatbuilding.
There is some expertese on this forum that could constructively work up possible solutions to the problem of keeping the village fisheries, the local ferries and the marine pickup truck classes of boats available to the local people.

John Welsford

[andrewe]

John, you really understand what this is about. Queue for the rest to follow.
A
I still dont think that another forum is needed, working boats have a space here.They are not often discussed in their working capacity, more as recreation boats.
A

[outofthenorm]

Originally Posted by john welsford

Back to the beginning.

Yes I would like to see a thread dedicated to wooden working boats. I'd like it to include historical examples including those older boats still working , current wooden boats, and possible future developments.
I would like the thread to have a world focus ...

John Welsford

John, it's simple really. If you want a thread like that, start a thread like that. If it's of interest (and it will be, I bet), people will join in. In not, they won't. No votes, no polls, no separate categories, no permission required, no need to bother the moderator, no need to change the status quo.

Just do it.

[Mike Vogdes]

I thought we were finally done beating this horse.

[Nauvoo]

Good ideas are hard to kill.

[john welsford]

Ah, my mistake, I should have said "Forum" rather than thread. Try again.
I'd like to see a dedicated area for this subject as I think its one deserving of its own space.

John Welsford

[kenjamin]

Call me old fashioned but hasn't any thread with a title already craved out its own space? What I wonder is: why can't richer, more developed countries share more sophisticated boat building methods with poorer, less developed ones? It seems like rounder, more efficient, lighter, stronger, ply lapstrake hulls could someday replace the simpler slab-sided boats of poor countries' boats if the templates for plank shapes and molds etc. were provided along with a good set of instructions and some glue. In other words, is glue lapstrake just too expensive for use in third world countries? Maybe an instruction booket could be developed that used pictures instead of words for building a good, efficient, strong, lightweight, glued lapstrake fishing boat.

As for whether or not wooden working craft should have its own category? Sure, why not? But it's pretty much up to our host to make such decisions for us. The best we can do is pray to God.....er, I mean Scott, to grant us a sticky.