"Naval architects and designers are a waste of money!"

[gizzard]

Nice edit, good save.

[Larks]

Peter, don't you find it a bit worrying that they have done all of this work based on their observation of the launch and supposed "calculations" when it was actually still as much on the jinker/trailer as it was off? With the bow still up on the trailer they couldn't possibly really tell how it would trim, even my Hartley sits lower in the stern by about half the height of the stern freeboard (depending on the angle of the ramp) until the bow comes down and floats off.

[P.L.Lenihan]

That's not even the half of it Larks. There are all sorts of things about this project which I find terribly worrying but I've not mentioned them as they aren't strictly about the design/construction/remedy process of this boat project and would serve little to any student of design following this thread. Your observation is very much valid.


Cheers!

Peter

[John B]

You shouldna worry so much,don't let the stress get to you Peter, take a holiday or somethi,,,, oh yeah , thats right.

Nup, out of ideas.

[P.L.Lenihan]

No more holidays until ice up.....don't want to miss the re-launch!


Cheers!


Peter

[Bob Adams]

Originally Posted by WX

They had better make sure their anti rust measures are top notch inside those things because if one springs a leak while it's in use they will be well and truly up sh*t creek without a paddle.

I do believe they are already here:

[WX]

That's brilliant! Love it.

[andrewe]

Larks, I was thinking just the same when they tried to launch. There must have been some serious doubts before they tried it to quit so easily.

PL, So when cometh the ice? Approx will do, don't need a certain day. :-)
A

[P.L.Lenihan]

Andrewe,

With any kind of luck, ice up will be sometime late November or early December along this part of the Seaway. The builders have got to get a move on if they don't want to lose another year with delays.That is to say, they'll be able to run all their tests for stability etc with the Dept.of Transport folks and systems too before the ice sets in and if things still aren't right not much is lost since this boating season is already over .Thus, they'll still have the dead season(winter) to make corrections and be ready(yet again) for the start of another season in 2010. Once the ice is set, not much can be done, launch wise, as the ice gets up to a couple of feet thick, and they will be forced to wait until after the 20th of March when the ice breakers come down the Seaway around here, before they can launch and run their tests.


Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

This is what ice up looks like not too far from the launch ramp,taken a few years ago just before the"official" closing date of December 21.


This ship worked hard the previous days by moving forward and backward to keep the channel opened.




For this last minute group of up-bound voyagers.




Working hard at towing.................



this barge and cargo........




while being pushed from the rear too.


Clearly not the best conditions for any yacht to be caught doing test in.


Cheers!


Peter

[Boston]

those big ugly floats those guys added should work great as ice catchers

[El Capitan]

Hi All,
My name is Chris and I'm new to the forum.
I must come forward and admit that I am one of the, probably, hundreds of people watching from the shadows as this story writes itself.
I'm in my first stages of my Naval Architechture education and, I have to say, that this doesn't look good for them. I could only hope to be as optimistic and generous with their figures as MMD but, as mentioned, I'm only in my first year of education, and I give respect and credit where it's due.
So, that said; For the safety of the people involved, as well as the investment, I optimistically hope he's right.

[L.W. Baxter]

Here's a story of an Oregon-based boat manufacturer who went under recently: Maxweld boats shut down

Note the passage regarding the failure to have designs vetted by a naval architect. Apparently, there was more than one major order that was badly delayed because of performance issues at sea trials. One large and expensive boat, for instance, that had to have the transom cut off and the hull extended because of trim issues.

This article is just the tip of the iceberg. Local and regional online forums are blazing with anecdotes about this company's actions and all the people ultimately ripped off by them. But it is easy to see that a lack of respect for good design could fatally delay cash flow in an operation that is borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

[James McMullen]

Didn't Maxweld specialize in power catamarans?. . . . .. . . . . . . . . .say, there's an idea. To fix their stability problems, they just need to build another one and lash 'em together with some crossbeams.
Good call, Lee!

[paladin]

Don't give them more stupid ideas!

[purri]

This thread reminds me of the replacement RAN Naval workboat and Huon class catamaran minehunter fiascos. The cat only went to sea twice and was then scrapped, the workboats are limited to 4 ft seas. Someone was paid a lot for little.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Originally Posted by P.L.Lenihan

...Once the ice is set, not much can be done, launch wise, as the ice gets up to a couple of feet thick, and they will be forced to wait until after the 20th of March when the ice breakers come down the Seaway around here, before they can launch and run their tests....

Maybe they should wait for the ice and then push the boat out onto the river. That way it wont roll over and sink. The only time that that boat will be safe for passenger use will be when the river is frozen solid.

[EastCoastChris]

Are we sure that those aren't a giant pair of ice skates being added?

Chris

[switters]

Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter

Here's a story of an Oregon-based boat manufacturer who went under recently: Maxweld boats shut down

Note the passage regarding the failure to have designs vetted by a naval architect. Apparently, there was more than one major order that was badly delayed because of performance issues at sea trials. One large and expensive boat, for instance, that had to have the transom cut off and the hull extended because of trim issues.

This article is just the tip of the iceberg. Local and regional online forums are blazing with anecdotes about this company's actions and all the people ultimately ripped off by them. But it is easy to see that a lack of respect for good design could fatally delay cash flow in an operation that is borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

Bit of a thread drift, but I was happy to see that North River boats is back up and running with new management. I've grown pretty fond of the family commander X, as a recreational fishing platform.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Up-date time!

The weather here is gradually becoming more of an issue for those forced to work in the great outdoors. The folks with this project, despite all sorts of constraints and presures, have nevertheless managed to make good progress in the right direction. Word going around the yard now is they will launch her as soon as the welding is done; no primer, paint or finish. They will then run their test and haul out for the winter. At the rate they are now going, with a lot of small pieces left to do, it is hard to say exactly when the re-launching date will be, but I dare say it could happen before December 1.

Here are a few pictures things as they now stand:




The aft end of the sponson has now been given some shape with the addition of a small wedge shaped piece, thus alluding to the forward cant of the topsides. Also, some of the through-hulls have been extended now out through the sponson sides.




A closer view of the port aft quarter where we can see,1) a new through-hull extension completed,2) a triangle welded to the aft end of the sponson and 3) a lower panel for closing off the aft end of the sponson.All smallish, fussy work, compared to the massive sponson side panels etc.....



Over on the forward starboard quarter, work has progessed too with the lower streamlining panel welded in place and an extension pipe added to a through-hull. While this work is considerably smaller than the side panel install, keep in mind that all the plate steel being used here is 1/4" .Heavy stuff indeed!



Aft starboard quarter with sponson profiled and closed off at the lower end. Tarp clearly in the way but no one was there to hold it away for the picture and I have to stand too far back just to get the picture....if that makes any sense?! At the top of the sponson too can be seen the top plates layed in place but unwelded.




Similarly over on the port side the top plate has been laid in place and inspection ports(manholes?) have been cut out. This view from the forward quarter, looking into the sponson.




Port side,looking forward.The cut-outs for the inspection ports all cut out(free hand with a touch!) to give access to the four water-tight chambers. The outboard edge, as you may have noticed, has a length of big angle iron tacked in place to keep this edge as true as possible for when the welding of the top plate to the sponson side takes place.


I hope the weather remains bearable enough for the builders to make rapid progress toward getting the sponsons completed enough for a re-launch attempt. With winter so soon upon us, they can certainly use a little break in the weather. The had better hurry though, the water levels have been dropping down toward their seasonal lows.Not good for ramp launching!



Cheers!


Peter

[rbgarr]

I bet those manhole covers won't be watertight enough.

[James McMullen]

. . . .good progress in the right direction.

After all this, you can still say a thing like that with a straight face?

[P.L.Lenihan]

Originally Posted by James McMullen

After all this, you can still say a thing like that with a straight face?

Indeed I can, for I have no desire to be needlessly mean to these folks.They've been good neighbours at the boat yard. However, I must confess to sharing or at least agreeing with many of the comments and observations already expressed throughout this thread by others. I just ain't tellin' which ones

I think I'm going to give your coffee recipe a go in a few minutes.....it was cold and damp at the boat yard today and I've only just come in a short while ago and need something to chase away the chills.


Cheers!


Peter

[Boston]

your a dam good sport Pete
best of luck in all your adventures
B

[EastCoastChris]

Originally Posted by P.L.Lenihan

Indeed I can, for I have no desire to be needlessly mean to these folks.They've been good neighbours at the boat yard.

I'm new to this exciting story, but however much I despair at the boat you can't knock their determination and the work they're getting through in an exposed yard beneath a tarp!

Chris

[Steve Paskey]

You know, someone really should get these guys together with George McKay and "Raw Faith" ...

[Boston]

no I think these guys are a bit above that
kinda looks like they took some standard design and slapped a huge flying bridge on it without consulting a NA
ugly
but at least they pulled it back out of the water

old George is in a league of his own

[Steve Paskey]

Originally Posted by Boston

no I think these guys are a bit above that

I'm not so sure ... Raw Faith floats and is stable. These guys have yet to prove they can meet that benchmark.

[Boston]

sure but this guy at least seems to have learned the concept of paint
the blind faith guy got lucky with the floats thing based on some really hideous proportions

I think if we were to make a list the blind faith guy would come out the winner
depending on how you look at it

[LeeG]

must turn away

[Steve Paskey]

Originally Posted by Boston

I think if we were to make a list the blind faith guy would come out the winner
depending on how you look at it

I dunno. I kind of feel for the Captain of Raw Faith. Whatever else you say about him, he had a vision of helping others, he's given it everything he's got, and he's paid a huge personal price.

As far as I can tell, these guys are just idiots who were trying to save themselves a few bucks on the NA's fees.

Besides, these guys had a $2 million bank loan to work with. If "Captain" McKay had that kind of money to spend, I bet he'd spring for some paint.

[Boston]

and that is precisely why we need a list

"2 million dollars to play with and didnt bother with an NA" belongs in its own column

"serious aversion to paint" might also be a good column heading, after all these guys might be the cream of the crop, but Im sure they have plenty of company.

there needs to be a spread sheet kinda thing with appropriate column headings, names to the left and a simple check box under each column
that way as any of us are preparing our builds we can check to see were not nominating ourselves for our own little thread of admirers. As I said, there but for the grace of whatever god you believe in, go I.

White elephant man looks like he at least hired real welders to do the work, that and his hand rail looks ok not my style but still its not a bad job. Blind faith is obviously very poorly built from the start and but ugly to boot. I still gotta give the overall award to blind faith

I gotta admit
these two threads have seriously woken me up to the need for consultation on my retirement build. I started out with some unreasonable expectations and the wake up call is perfect.

[BarnacleGrim]

Blind Faith may be floating right side up, but I think the teredo worms will have the final say.

I have fantasized of one day building the Yago, but no offence to the designer, I think I'll get a second opinion from a NA first, even if it looks like a sound design.

[marcin]

Originally Posted by BarnacleGrim

Blind Faith may be floating right side up, but I think the teredo worms will have the final say.

I have fantasized of one day building the Yago, but no offence to the designer, I think I'll get a second opinion from a NA first, even if it looks like a sound design.

Thought about it too, contacted Gerd Mueller twice to get the plans, and so far no response. No updates newer than 01-2008 either. Seems that that's a dead end.

[BarnacleGrim]

I have the plans, if you want them. There are a lot of unanswered questions, though, like how the bilge board cases are supposed to be made, or what sort of engine installation it should have. But if it is seaworthy enough and tracks reasonably well in the absence of a long keel it looks like the perfect compromise between a minimal world cruiser and a gunkholing boat. It can even be beached, according to the man himself.

[marcin]

Originally Posted by BarnacleGrim

I have the plans, if you want them. There are a lot of unanswered questions, though, like how the bilge board cases are supposed to be made, or what sort of engine installation it should have. But if it is seaworthy enough and tracks reasonably well in the absence of a long keel it looks like the perfect compromise between a minimal world cruiser and a gunkholing boat. It can even be beached, according to the man himself.

I'd love to have a gander at them. If you like, you can PM me or email marcin (dot) ciuk (at) australia (dot) edu,

Many thanks

[boatbuddha]

Originally Posted by Steve Paskey

I'm not so sure ... Raw Faith floats and is stable. These guys have yet to prove they can meet that benchmark.

It's a lot easier to make wood float, heck even I've managed it a couple of times.

[Boston]

rumor is they are docked and not at there mooring

you know there are a few enzymes you can buy that just love untreated moist wood,
if you got an old stump or something you can just poor the stuff on it and in about a year the stump is mush. Thing is if you got any on say, felt bottom wading boots and then tracked it say, into the house, and the floor was untreated, you might just end up in trouble.

oops sorry I was just thinking out loud about this old bleached stump out back

best
B

any more picts of the progress on the white elephant

[P.L.Lenihan]

Originally Posted by Boston

any more picts of the progress on the white elephant

Not yet B, they are just now in the process of assembling the rings,flanges and bolt holes for the inspection ports atop the sponsons. Yesterday was a long one for them as one of the chaps from Transport Canada was down and spent the better part of the day having them partially dis-assemble(un-tack) a few of the top plates to the sponsons so that he could get in there to perform a thorough inspect. Apparently, this is the second time they've gone ahead with work before having it inspected and the transport Canada guys really don't like those sort of shenanigans which means they have to wait around while workers un-do things "they" told them not to seal up before inspection.

Seeing how the weather has turned, they really will not be able to do any priming or painting of the sponsons(I think!) and will thus hurry along getting the sponsons water tight so they can re-launch and run whatever tests are necessary before hauling her up for the winter. Difficult to say exactly how much longer before re-launch but it could come within the next couple of weeks,I am guessing, uinless they experience some further unexpected delays. Yes, I'll t try to be present for round 2.


Cheers!


Peter

[The Bigfella]

So, if they "launch" and can't get her back out .... would she survive the ice?

[C. Ross]

Originally Posted by The Bigfella

So, if they "launch" and can't get her back out .... would she survive the ice?

Should be fine, unless that river piles up and pushes the ice around. A bubbler helps.

A couple of dozen year-round liveaboards in steel hulled boats in my club, in a climate that's probably tougher than Montreal.

Whaddya think Mr. Lenihan?

[Boston]

I cant imagine the condensation they must have to deal with

[P.L.Lenihan]

Little up-date time. The weather she gets worse and worser as this crew continues plugging away at the job at hand. Over night temperatures have begun dipping bellow freezing and my dreams are starting their annual change which now includes snow in most of them!




A cold,windy and rain filled day.All quiet at that yard.The port side sponson is just about finished.




The lid has to be welded on the streamlining shape and some grinding of the welds and that will be it for the front on this side.




The aft section on the port side is completed and may need nothing more than a few passess with a grinder to pretty up the welds.




Starboard side,aft. The lid is not yet installed onto the end of this sponson but will soon be.The white hose you see here is for pumping out the never ending accumulation of rain water collecting at the bottom of the sponsons.




Inspection port covers all cut out and the drilling of the bolt holes has begun.Judging by the number of holes(28) and the thickness of the plate(1/4" +) this is a long tedious job.Working out doors in miserable conditions can't be helping too much the speed of the work or the moral of the workers.



At the rate they are now working, and with what little appears to remain to be done, there is a very good chance they will get her re-launched before the month is out. As stated previously, the word around the yard is they will not be doing any kind of priming or finishing work on these sponsons before next Spring(too cold for the products) but just complete the construction,launch,run stability test etc.. and haul her back out for the winter to finish up the interior.

I hope they make it!


Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

Originally Posted by C. Ross

Should be fine, unless that river piles up and pushes the ice around. A bubbler helps.

A couple of dozen year-round liveaboards in steel hulled boats in my club, in a climate that's probably tougher than Montreal.

Whaddya think Mr. Lenihan?

She should be able to withstand the ice just fine at the launch ramp as there is little current within the Seaway canal at this point and the ice is stable. The only problem they would experience if the can't haul her back out would be getting power to her for the crew to carry on working inside during the winter. Where they are now on land, they have ready and easy access to lots of welding strength juice. Out off the launch ramp..........no power at all unless they themselves run a powerline out there as the yard will certainly not do it for them.

Winters in St.Paul, Mn. are every bit as tough, if not tougher, than here as you guys get a taste of the Calgary Clipper more often than we do


Cheers!


Peter

[scudder]

Thanks for the update. I am interested in the inspection port set-up. Any word on how far above the waterline they are projected to be when the boat floats in a 2 foot chop? What type of bolts and gasket material will be used to assure watertightness, yet trouble free removal of the covers for periodic inspections ? Is someone going to have to climb inside to paint the insides at some point?

[Simon P]

Are they going to put some inflatable bladders in those sponsons? (or empty juice bottles, kids floaties, corks, ANYTHING?!)
One bad weld, a bit of corrosion, a leak and it's "DIVE, DIVE, DIVE"
(In fact, I'm sure I've seen similar structures on submarines)

[Boston]

clearly you have never been to burning man
safety's third

cools first
works ( at least for the duration ) is second
safety is a clear and respectable third

lets try and keep the priorities strait here ok
were trying to get it onto the water before its warm enough for swimming

[mmd]

Simon P, if shell plate weld seams are an issue, there are a lot more critical ones than those of the sponsons. The hull seams, for example. The real problem in those sponsons will be condensation. I don't recall any comment in previous posts about bilge pumps in them, but there ought to be some. I wonder what the Transport Canada's inspectors' thoughts are on whether these constitute "enclosed spaces" vis-a-vis compartment ventilation and bilge pumps?

[TimH]

They should trailer it someplace with a big travel lift. They could gently lower it in and if it starts to capsize or sink just lift it up again.

Launching from a ramp seems kind of a crapshoot.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Originally Posted by scudder

Thanks for the update. I am interested in the inspection port set-up. Any word on how far above the waterline they are projected to be when the boat floats in a 2 foot chop? What type of bolts and gasket material will be used to assure watertightness, yet trouble free removal of the covers for periodic inspections ? Is someone going to have to climb inside to paint the insides at some point?

Thanks scudder,

Judging by where the"original" or intended water line is drawn(see earlier picures) these inspection ports,on the sponsons, appear to be about 20 odd inches above that intended waterline. However, exactly where the new waterline will be is pretty much open to anyones guess at the moment. Sorry I can't answer to the gasket and bolt material quesion as they aren't there yet in the build.

They have been painting in stages pretty much as they have proceeded in closing up the sponsons but yes, there is room for a smallish person to actually enter into the sponson for inspection and or painting when the need arises.


Cheers!

Peter